Not happy with this draft

[Doomsday]

Let me ask a question...

I've read a lot of posts saying were giving the fourth round LB the benefit of doubt because of Hitchens and were giving the third round T the benefit of the doubt because how well we've drafted OL.

Hitchens is an anomaly. Only fourth rounder we've hit on in maybe ten years. Can you honestly feel optimistic about our new guy based on an anomaly?

And the OT... Sure we've drafted good/great OL lately but that was with Callahan. A great OL coach who has had a hand in picking OL players every where he's been. He's gone.

Also Tyron, Frederick, & Martin were all first rounders. What mid to late round OL have we really hit on?


Maybe I'm being a Debbie downer because I hate how this draft ended after such a strong start.

Critical thought frowned upon by "real" Cowboys fans.

You ask very good questions but for me I was okay with this draft, but only just. Just kind of ho-hum until that last trade. Still can't wrap my mind around it at all.

 

[yimyammer]

Let me ask a question...

I've read a lot of posts saying were giving the fourth round LB the benefit of doubt because of Hitchens and were giving the third round T the benefit of the doubt because how well we've drafted OL.

Hitchens is an anomaly. Only fourth rounder we've hit on in maybe ten years. Can you honestly feel optimistic about our new guy based on an anomaly?

And the OT... Sure we've drafted good/great OL lately but that was with Callahan. A great OL coach who has had a hand in picking OL players every where he's been. He's gone.

Also Tyron, Frederick, & Martin were all first rounders. What mid to late round OL have we really hit on?


Maybe I'm being a Debbie downer because I hate how this draft ended after such a strong start.

I just don't think anyone here or elsewhere knows didly squat when it comes to evaluating players and I'm at the head of that class as probably everyone here knows more about players than I do but compared to the people that do it for a living none of us come close to evaluating on the level they do (which doesn't mean they always get it right because even despite all the work and expertise, its still a damn crap shoot). So getting upset about something at this juncture when none of us have any idea who is gonna be good, bad, great, terrible or whatever is a waste of time and emotion, IMHO.

I know this, they're gonna hit on a few, have a few misses, get a few serviceable guys and maybe, just maybe they walk away with a stud but we won't really know for a year+ so only time will tell.

Philosophically, I feel like the team has changed their approach for the better and it appears to be paying off but I certainly may be making a false assumption here because I have no idea what really goes on behind the scenes at valley ranch.

The only thing I didn't like (and its not that big of a deal, it just irks me) is why the fuck did they have to trade a 6th round pick in 2016 for a TE I highly doubt anyone else was about to grab. Feels like Steven and Jason decided to take a bathroom break and forgot to bring jerri with him and lo and behold, when they come back in the room they catch jerri on the phone sneaking in the trade.

That just reeked of jerri's tunnel vision and desperate reaches of the past. At least he's only doing it in the 7th round now and only wasting 6th round picks. Having said that, he could turn out to be a gem, I don't have a clue. I just don't like trade ups when they aren't necessary or virtual locks to be good players.

 

[Midswat]

I just don't think anyone here or elsewhere knows didly squat when it comes to evaluating players and I'm at the head of that class as probably everyone here knows more about players than I do but compared to the people that do it for a living none of us come close to evaluating on the level they do (which doesn't mean they always get it right because even despite all the work and expertise, its still a damn crap shoot). So getting upset about something at this juncture when none of us have any idea who is gonna be good, bad, great, terrible or whatever is a waste of time and emotion, IMHO.

Absolutely agree with this. We're clueless. The moron posters writing 2k word scouting reports citing the All-22's are clueless. And I'd say even the paid scouts who watch endless amounts of film, interview players coaches etc etc etc.... even they're mostly guessing. Because no matter the talent of the individual, you can't measure two things: Heart, and how a 22 year old will respond to celebrity and ridiculous amounts of cash.

Having said that... certain teams perform better in the draft. Others, not so much. We've been better since 2010 (although 2012 was terrible). So its harder to give those teams with spotty track records the benefit of the doubt.

That, coupled with us all being fans who all love the draft and spend too much time ourselves reading mocks, scouting reports, videos, etc... when we're drafting players none of us have heard of and follow it up reading scouting reports that cite the player as a later round prospect with their "Negatives/Weakness" paragraph being a little too much longer than their "Positives/Strengths" write up, its not hard to understand why we'd get annoyed.

 

[yimyammer]

when we're drafting players none of us have heard of and follow it up reading scouting reports that cite the player as a later round prospect with their "Negatives/Weakness" paragraph being a little too much longer than their "Positives/Strengths" write up, its not hard to understand why we'd get annoyed.

Yes sir, I get it and thats part of being a fan(atic), I've got myself worked up a few times in the past but then I realized how many damn players there are to evaluate and knowing the focus of most evaluations is on the obvious top prospects coupled with the inherent imperfection of it all, just gives me a wait and see attitude.

The last straw for me was probably Mo Claiborne, I figured after giving up those kind of resources, this kid must be a stud but then.....WTF?!?!?

 

[Everlastingxxx]

I love what they did because it wasnt filled with alot of flashy players. They keep building the trenches. I am always a homer after the draft because im know my knowledge is limited compared to guys who do this stuff full time. I am willing to give each player a chance before i label them a bust or a bad pick.

 

[SixisBetter]

Absolutely agree with this. We're clueless. The moron posters writing 2k word scouting reports citing the All-22's are clueless. And I'd say even the paid scouts who watch endless amounts of film, interview players coaches etc etc etc.... even they're mostly guessing. Because no matter the talent of the individual, you can't measure two things: Heart, and how a 22 year old will respond to celebrity and ridiculous amounts of cash.

Just for fun,check this out.
Former No.1 overall picks.

1st Overall Draft Picks
Year	Player	Pos.	School	Drafted By
2013	Eric Fisher	OT	Central Michigan	Kansas City
2012	Andrew Luck	QB	Stanford	Indianapolis
2011	Cam Newton	QB	Auburn	Carolina
2010	Sam Bradford	QB	Oklahoma	St. Louis
2009	Matt Stafford	QB	Georgia	Detroit
2008	Jake Long	OT	Michigan	Miami
2007	JaMarcus Russell	QB	LSU	Oakland
2006	Mario Williams	DE	North Carolina State	Houton
2005	Alex D. Smith	QB	Utah	San Francisco
2004	Eli Manning	QB	Mississippi	San Diego
2003	Carson Palmer	QB	USC	Cincinnati
2002	David Carr	QB	Fresno State	Houston
2001	Michael Vick	QB	Virginia Tech	Atlanta
2000	Courtney Brown	DE	Penn State	Cleveland
1999	Tim Couch	QB	Kentucky	Cleveland
1998	Peyton Manning	QB	Tennessee	Indianapolis
1997	Orlando Pace	T	Ohio State	St. Louis Rams
1996	Keyshawn Johnson	WR	USC	N.Y. Jets
1995	Ki-Jana Carter	RB	Penn State	Cincinnati
1994	Dan Wilkinson	DT	Ohio State	Cincinnati
1993	Drew Bledsoe	QB	Washington State	New England
1992	Steve Emtman	DT	Washington	Indianapolis
1991	Russell Maryland	DT	Miami (FL)	Dallas
1990	Jeff George	QB	Illinois	Indianapolis
1989	Troy Aikman	QB	UCLA	Dallas
1988	Aundray Bruce	LB	Auburn	Atlanta
1987	Vinny Testaverde	QB	Miami (FL)	Tampa Bay
1986	Bo Jackson	RB	Auburn	Tampa Bay
1985	Bruce Smith	DE	Virginia Tech	Buffalo
1984	Irving Fryar	WR	Nebraska	New England

Here's a link to all of them(up to 2013) 1st Overall NFL Draft Picks

 

[Rynie]

Someone on the doom-n-gloom message board doesn't like the draft? That's crazy!

 

[Omegasupreme]

You've said this ad nauseam. Virtually no one agrees with you. Virtually everyone, except you, believes that the Cowboys intend to make extensive use of the running game in the upcoming season.

Among the rest of us, a main disagreement is whether the OL is so dominant that the running game will continue to be consistent and reliable even if the team uses a collection of what are essentially JAG running backs.

What would you say that extensive use of the running game would be? I don't buy it either. I think Dallas will not average over 28 carries a game by week 10 with Linehan.

 

[Omegasupreme]

Absolutely agree with this. We're clueless. The moron posters writing 2k word scouting reports citing the All-22's are clueless. And I'd say even the paid scouts who watch endless amounts of film, interview players coaches etc etc etc.... even they're mostly guessing. Because no matter the talent of the individual, you can't measure two things: Heart, and how a 22 year old will respond to celebrity and ridiculous amounts of cash.

Having said that... certain teams perform better in the draft. Others, not so much. We've been better since 2010 (although 2012 was terrible). So its harder to give those teams with spotty track records the benefit of the doubt.

That, coupled with us all being fans who all love the draft and spend too much time ourselves reading mocks, scouting reports, videos, etc... when we're drafting players none of us have heard of and follow it up reading scouting reports that cite the player as a later round prospect with their "Negatives/Weakness" paragraph being a little too much longer than their "Positives/Strengths" write up, its not hard to understand why we'd get annoyed.

But what about the simple positional eye test that not having a very dynamic DT, a developmental QB, a replacement RB, upgrade at CB (when Scandrick, Carr and Claiborne may be unreliable this year) and no deep speed at WR? How about having Will Smith, Jasper Brinkley, Andrew Gazchar, Kyle Wilbur, Hitchins, etc already, how would having those LBs lead to getting 3 more LBs? And despite having 3 rather sufficient TEs, why would that lead to trading away a future pick for a TE when there are much greater empty depth and starter roster spots?

 

[Midswat]

Yeah the run on LB's no question was odd. And the TE trade was mind boggling.

Also hate that our Purdue DE was basically a no effort guy. Thought thats what we wanted, go hard effort guys who loved football.

 

[overused]

Also hate that our Purdue DE was basically a no effort guy. Thought thats what we wanted, go hard effort guys who loved football.

well he will be replacing a non effort guy Spencer

 

[ThoughtExperiment]

Like omega said, anyone else slightly concerned about cb? We know you need three of them and they always seem to get banged up. What if Jones isn't ready right away -- very likely coming from uconn -- and/or Carr and Scandrick don't make it all year? Who is this year's Sterling Moore?

 

[LAZARUS_LOGAN]

Let me ask a question...

I've read a lot of posts saying were giving the fourth round LB the benefit of doubt because of Hitchens and were giving the third round T the benefit of the doubt because how well we've drafted OL.

Hitchens is an anomaly. Only fourth rounder we've hit on in maybe ten years. Can you honestly feel optimistic about our new guy based on an anomaly?

And the OT... Sure we've drafted good/great OL lately but that was with Callahan. A great OL coach who has had a hand in picking OL players every where he's been. He's gone.

Also Tyron, Frederick, & Martin were all first rounders. What mid to late round OL have we really hit on?


Maybe I'm being a Debbie downer because I hate how this draft ended after such a strong start.

I think you are overstating Callahan's influence.

1.) Tyron Smith, and Doug Free were all here before Callahan.

2.) Callahan came here in 2012 and was out of here in 2015. So he was here for three seasons. During that time the Cowboys only drafted two OL and both in the 1st round. As most on this board knows, I HATE Garrett. Last year's success hasn't changed that. With that said, Garrett should and would get credit for the acquisition of Fredericks. Way I recall reading was Garrett had a connection with one of the coaches at UWisc, who directed Garrett to Fredericks.

Thing is if you want to give Callahan credit for Fredericks and Martin, you have to give him blame for Bernadeau and Livings, in addition to Callahan gushing over Costa. Truth of the matter is that Frank Pollack deserves most of the credit for the success of the Cowboys' OL. He was the hands-on guy, while Callahan assisted with OC duties, and then was slowly phased out with Linehan coming aboard.

 

[ThoughtExperiment]

Can't agree with that, Laz. Callahan has had great lines everywhere he's been O-line coach, and I don't think that's a coincidence.

And Callahan is the one who personally went to UW and scouted Frederick while Garrett pouted about passing on Floyd.

 

[Doomsday]

Can't agree with that, Laz. Callahan has had great lines everywhere he's been O-line coach, and I don't think that's a coincidence.

And Callahan is the one who personally went to UW and scouted Frederick while Garrett pouted about passing on Floyd.

And suddenly Washington is drafting O-Line help....

 

[LAZARUS_LOGAN]

Can't agree with that, Laz. Callahan has had great lines everywhere he's been O-line coach, and I don't think that's a coincidence.

And Callahan is the one who personally went to UW and scouted Frederick while Garrett pouted about passing on Floyd.

Don't have to agree. It is what it is. And he didn't have great lines everywhere he went. The OL he had in Philly was crap. The OL in Oakland was meh, though they did have a couple of Por Bowlers --- namely Steve Wisnewski, who was already a Pro Bowler and All-Pro BEFORE Callahan arrived. So credit Callahan for Lincoln Kennedy.

On to the Jets. Very good OL. Faneca though was like Wisnewski, an All-Pro and Pro Bowler before Callahan arrived.

Who the fuck directed Callahan to go Wisconsin? And Garrett pouting about passing up Floyd has exactly to do with what? Like most, he probably figured that Fredericks could be had in the 2nd.

Fact is, Pollack was the hands-on with this past season and the season prior. Fuck man! Callahan was up in the booth! How many OL coaches you know are up in the booth? He was more involved with being an OC and fucking things up, hence why they brought in Linehan the following season, and thus demoted. Pollack still was the hands-on guy.

 

[bbgun]

I realize Murray is hard to replace but did we even find a decent substitute for Dwayne Harris?

 

[LAZARUS_LOGAN]

And suddenly Washington is drafting O-Line help....

Even without Callahan I could have told you that was going to happen. Snyder is envious of Jones, and damn near copies him with every move.

When the Cowboys selected Jason Witten, and all the attention he received in the media... what did the Redskins do? They draft Chris Cooley. And Redskins' fans claimed that Cooley was better than Witten. Which was bullshit.

When the Cowboys selected Roy Williams, and all the attention he received in the media... what did the Redskins do? They draft Sean Taylor. And Redskins' fans claimed that Taylor was better than Williams. Which was bullshit, and the numbers support this. Like Midswat stated, Taylor was canonized after getting shot and killed.

When the Cowboys selected Demarcus Ware, and all the attention he received in the media... what did the Redskins do? They draft Brian Orakpo. And Redskins' fans claimed that Orakpo was better than Ware. Which was bullshit.

Even going back further. Snyder went and got Steve Spurrier, a National College championship-winning coach from a Florida school, in an attempt to replicate another National College championship-winning coach (Johnson) from a Florida school that won Super Bowls (becoming the first to have done so and now is one of two).

How many Cowboys' castoffs- both coaches and players have the Redskins under Snyder gleaned?

This is just the latest. Zach Martin --- the first rookie to ever win All-Pro, a key to the success of the Cowboys OL. There was no OL unit in the entire NFL that garnered as much media attention as the Cowboys' OL.

And so... what did the Redskins do? They overdraft Scherff, and pass on arguably the best player in the draft (Leonard Williams). Scherff is not the 5th best player the draft.

But like all the other times.. Redskins' fans will claim that Scherff is better than Martin. Which will be bullshit.

The selection of Scherff is just a continuation of Snyder literally keeping up with the Jones's.

 

[ThoughtExperiment]

Ugh.

1. I don't think Garrett is the one who "ordered" Callahan to go to Wisconsin, work out Frederick, and give him a great grade comparable to Nick Mangold. I'd think sure the one who told him to go take a look was McClay or Ciskowski or whoever was running scouting that year.

2. Callahan was probably in the booth because he and Garrett didn't get along at all due to Jerry yanking his playcalling duties and handing them to Callahan. (Which BTW was not Callahan's fault.) It's possible to say Pollack will be fine for us while also giving Callahan credit for being a good coach.

3. You're right, I did notice that the Skins drafted both offensive and defensive players this draft. Clearly they were copying the Cowboys, who did the exact same thing the year before.

 

[dbair1967]

I realize Murray is hard to replace but did we even find a decent substitute for Dwayne Harris?

I think Goodley or Farmer could end up being that guy. Both thsoe guy have return experience.

I think they were about to draft that guy from Nebraska but the Bucs traded up to the spot in front of us and took him.