Dodger12

Super Moderator
I tend to think both of these are more a reflection on the epic bad coaching than just mediocre to bad play from the QB alone.

Linehan was guilty of some of the same garbage in the redzone as well, many times blatantly ignoring the obvious (run the ball in) to try and get cute and fool people. I also think there's been a big issue with how bad the redzone passing game system was designed itself. Too many "run to the tree and turn around" routes down there, nothing that really floods zones or creates space.

I think we're going to see a pretty dramatic improvement in redzone efficiency and probably eliminate a lot of the epic slow starts we have seen under Garrett year over year.
It's not all or nothing. Coaching was bad, as was QB play. I don't think Brad Johnson, Matt Cassel, Brandon Weeden or Kellen Moore sucked because they had bad coaching. They sucked too.
 

dbair1967

Administrator
Why can't you just answer my question?
I'll answer it when I see evidence of what he does when he has really good coaching.

So far, all he has had in the NFL is pretty bad coaching.

I don't care how much you want to argue it, but nobody is ever going to convince me Prescott (or anyone else here really) has ever been put into the best position to succeed with the HC and staff we had since 2007. This will be the first year we might be able to draw some decent conclusions. McCarthy has a track of success as a HC, playcaller and QB developer. Red Headed Turd had none of the above.
 

Number1

Spectator
So since there likely isn’t going to be much of an off season am I right in saying that Dak’s deadline to get a deal done is July 15th? That’s the deadline for him to sign the franchise tag right?

I think that if they don’t get a deal worked out and Dak actually plays under the franchise tag in 2020, I don’t think he will be a member of the team in 2021.


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Why?
 

Number1

Spectator
I'll answer it when I see evidence of what he does when he has really good coaching.

So far, all he has had in the NFL is pretty bad coaching.
I'll give JG credit for getting a lot out of a RFA (Romo) and a R4 pick (Prescott) at QB. IMO, JG is not a bad QB coach.

MM has a ton to fix:
- the worst STs in the NFL,
- a whole new D to implement (with 7+ new faces on the game day roster),
- instability at C and LG,
- JJ … ,
- and a pandemic …

Dak will throw a duck now and again, but he doesn't throw dumb passes and has a knack for big plays. Dak's a work-o-holic who goes brain dead less than any QB I can remember in a Cowboys uniform (I never saw Eddie LeBaron play).

He's probably one of the easier guys on the roster to work with.
 

Dodger12

Super Moderator
I'll answer it when I see evidence of what he does when he has really good coaching.

So far, all he has had in the NFL is pretty bad coaching.

I don't care how much you want to argue it, but nobody is ever going to convince me Prescott (or anyone else here really) has ever been put into the best position to succeed with the HC and staff we had since 2007. This will be the first year we might be able to draw some decent conclusions. McCarthy has a track of success as a HC, playcaller and QB developer. Red Headed Turd had none of the above.
Oh...I see. You have to give this guy the best OL, the best WR's and the best RB in the game and now you have to give him the best coaching to see what he can do? Does this really make sense to you?
 

Dodger12

Super Moderator
You are lopping Prescott in with these guys as examples of "bad"?
Don't be obtuse. I didn't need Lomardi coaching these guys to know they were bad. Same with Dak. He's not bad like Breeden and the others but he's not some franchise QB being held back by the Red Dolt and deserves to be the highest paid player in the NFL. Ummmm...no.
 

Number1

Spectator
Oh...I see. You have to give this guy the best OL,
that ain't hardly the case in the last 3 years
I assume you are aware we'll have a new starters at C, TE, and there's not like we have a proven LG on the team

the best WR's,
they haven't had a real X on the field for 3 years … that's why they snatched Lamb in a heart beat
prior to the pick we were 2 deep

and the best RB in the game
that's debatable

and now you have to give him the best coaching to see what he can do?
really? :)

Does this really make sense to you?
no it really doesn't - the idea we haven't seen enough in 4 NFL seasons to have an opinion don't make sense

but neither do your questions above

but I'm interested to read your take on Dak considering you seem to think we have the best OL, WRs, and RB in the NFL
and now the best coaching too :)
 

dbair1967

Administrator
Oh...I see. You have to give this guy the best OL, the best WR's and the best RB in the game and now you have to give him the best coaching to see what he can do? Does this really make sense to you?
So by your flawed thinking then, the only QB's in the history of football ever worth anything would be guys who were surrounded by absolutely the worst talent?

Tom Brady has had a lot of good players around him, but he has benefitted more from playing with the best coach of the last 20+ years and one of the best in league history. If Brady played for Jason Garrett nobody would give two shits about him, because he would have never won anything.

Joe Montana and Troy Aikman played on loaded championship teams, it doesnt make them any less a QB. They were both sensational players.
 

MrB

Draft Pick
They could tag him again next year unless something changed with the new CBA
They absolutely can tag him again for a much higher salary. I just think they really will not want to pay him that much and their relationship could be too far gone by then.


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MrB

Draft Pick
Because the salary they would have to pay for franchising him twice will be much more than what they will have to pay him this season. So I do not see them franchising him again. I also do not think the Jones would want to go through all this again next season. I could see them drafting a QB with a premium pick (1 thru 3) and keeping Dalton around for a couple years.


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MrB

Draft Pick
$31+ this tag and $37+ if we tag him again next season
If the Jones’ were willing to give him $37M I think they would have done that already. They clearly have a set dollar amount they don’t want to exceed. Based on the last report they were willing to come down to the 4 years that Dak wants but haven’t gone above $35M. Plus I think if they franchised him again, I think Dak would hold out.


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Dodger12

Super Moderator
that ain't hardly the case in the last 3 years
I assume you are aware we'll have a new starters at C, TE, and there's not like we have a proven LG on the team
Are you trolling me? The Cowboys have had one of the best OL's for several years by any measurable metric. I believe the were ranked top 5 in run and pass blocking last season and they've been one of the best (if not THE best OL) during Dak's tenure as starting QB. We drafted the best center in this draft and Connor Williams days may be numbered at LG. It's a good unit and any QB would play behind it.

they haven't had a real X on the field for 3 years … that's why they snatched Lamb in a heart beat
prior to the pick we were 2 deep
We snatched Lamb because he was a top 10 talent that dropped to us and we picked the BPA. It was not a position of need. We were thin in the slot when Cobb departed and that's where Lamb is going to earn his money. In any event, we had to give away a #1 pick and a huge contract to give Dak a #1 WR.

that's debatable
Every D coordinator in the NFL game plans to stop Zeke and forces Dak to beat them. That's the recipe to beat Dallas and opposing coaches and players don't hide that strategy. The problem is that Dak can't consistently carry the team and make posing defenses pay.

no it really doesn't - the idea we haven't seen enough in 4 NFL seasons to have an opinion don't make sense

but neither do your questions above

but I'm interested to read your take on Dak considering you seem to think we have the best OL, WRs, and RB in the NFL
and now the best coaching too :)
My take on Dak is this. I've seen enough in 4 years to know he's not a true franchise QB. He lacks arm talent, decision making, has questionable pocket presence and can't see the whole field. He doesn't trust his arm to make NFL throws. Yes, he'll have some good/great games against lesser competition. But I'm not fooled by those, nor am I fooled by the stats when I watch the games and realize he just can't consistently carry this team. I like his grit and he stays healthy but he doesn't have NFL arm talent. Harsh? Probably.

But when the most important person on the field is the RB and that's the guy every NFL defense schemes to stop, your team is built wrong.
 

Dodger12

Super Moderator
So by your flawed thinking then, the only QB's in the history of football ever worth anything would be guys who were surrounded by absolutely the worst talent?

Tom Brady has had a lot of good players around him, but he has benefitted more from playing with the best coach of the last 20+ years and one of the best in league history. If Brady played for Jason Garrett nobody would give two shits about him, because he would have never won anything.

Joe Montana and Troy Aikman played on loaded championship teams, it doesnt make them any less a QB. They were both sensational players.
Please don't build straw men. Each of those QB's you mentioned made players around them better. Sure Brady played with BB but that doesn't take away his greatness, no more so than Aikman playing for Jimmy or Montana playing with Walsh.

Hell, we're hoping MM can turn things around for Dak. And I don't disagree that MM can help Dak, to some extent. But we now have to give Dak a SB winning HC, along with the best OL, the best RB and the best WR combo in the NFL to be successful. Enough with this scrub already. I get tired of explaining it year after year.
 

dbair1967

Administrator
Please don't build straw men. Each of those QB's you mentioned made players around them better. Sure Brady played with BB but that doesn't take away his greatness, no more so than Aikman playing for Jimmy or Montana playing with Walsh.

Hell, we're hoping MM can turn things around for Dak. And I don't disagree that MM can help Dak, to some extent. But we now have to give Dak a SB winning HC, along with the best OL, the best RB and the best WR combo in the NFL to be successful. Enough with this scrub already. I get tired of explaining it year after year.
Prescott definitely isn't Aikman, Montana or Brady, but I don't think he is a "scrub" either and that's the part you and I disagree on. He's a guy you win with (he has a career winning record now despite playing for a horrendous HC and staff)

In an ideal world they wouldn't be talking about getting a contract that re-sets the market, but the NFL isnt an ideal world. QB's re-set the market every year and many sign deals that are nowhere near what their real status is around how good they are at their position. Whatever deal he signs now will surely be lapped in 6 months to a year, and the cycle will continue from there.
 

MrB

Draft Pick
Please don't build straw men. Each of those QB's you mentioned made players around them better. Sure Brady played with BB but that doesn't take away his greatness, no more so than Aikman playing for Jimmy or Montana playing with Walsh.

Hell, we're hoping MM can turn things around for Dak. And I don't disagree that MM can help Dak, to some extent. But we now have to give Dak a SB winning HC, along with the best OL, the best RB and the best WR combo in the NFL to be successful. Enough with this scrub already. I get tired of explaining it year after year.
If the end result is them winning a SB who gives a crap how they do it? They could have the absolute best QB in the league surrounded by the worst talent imaginable, or they could have the best talent in the world and a crap QB, if the end result for both is they win a SB what does it matter how they do it?


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MrB

Draft Pick
Prescott definitely isn't Aikman, Montana or Brady, but I don't think he is a "scrub" either and that's the part you and I disagree on. He's a guy you win with (he has a career winning record now despite playing for a horrendous HC and staff)

In an ideal world they wouldn't be talking about getting a contract that re-sets the market, but the NFL isnt an ideal world. QB's re-set the market every year and many sign deals that are nowhere near what their real status is around how good they are at their position. Whatever deal he signs now will surely be lapped in 6 months to a year, and the cycle will continue from there.
Should be lapped twice within the next year by Mahomes and Watson. Then shortly after that Lamar is going to re-set the market again. Then within the next 2 years Buffalo is likely going to make Josh Allen the highest paid QB in the league. By that point Dak’s contract won’t look so bad.


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