Dodger12

Super Moderator
I'm not trying to be argumentative or dismissive but attributing what your pointing out to election fraud is speculation (thats what I was referring to), we must have evidence imho (is this really controversial?).

I'm on your side when I see sound evidence to make the case.

Until then, I've yet to see anyone make an evidence backed case (but I admittedly dont have time to read/watch everything on the planet) which is essential because we cannot change the standard of innocent until proven guilty when it suits us, even if things seem to stink to high heaven.

I thoroughly agree we need a transparent, unbiased election system with checks and balances that make it virtually fraud/cheat-proof and that discussion & evaluation should be taking place publicly on an ongoing basis but I suspect politicians from both sides dont want what is best for the voting process but what is best for their party thus all the angst and nonsense like people running for office being in charge of elections, etc, etc

Not disagreeing with you. But you can't let elections like this stand. People have to answer for the abortion that happened in Arizona where over 30% of the election hardware malfunctioned and affected mostly conservative voters. There has to be consequences to keep the system honest.
 

Dodger12

Super Moderator
If this happened in the inner city and minority voters were affected, there would absolutely be consequences and there would be rioting in the streets. But since people associate Republicans with white caucasians, nothing will be done. In reality, this affected people of all races. Our voting system is a joke.
 

yimyammer

Quality Starter
Not disagreeing with you. But you can't let elections like this stand. People have to answer for the abortion that happened in Arizona where over 30% of the election hardware malfunctioned and affected mostly conservative voters. There has to be consequences to keep the system honest.

I'm game, how's it going to happen? How can we get evidence that holds up in a court of law in even the most adverse of circumstances?

Also, I want to fight against my own bias so I dont fall prey to falsehoods that feed my preconceptions. I think we'd all be wise to do so as we all have bias. Given the fact we're all imperfect creatures with limited knowledge, it stands to reason that something we currently hold dear is factually incorrect. Feeding my bias only blinds me to this reality and prevents me from pivoting when necessary and justified.

My natural inclination is to despise everything a democrat says but that opens the door to being mislead by the other side and they're not perfect either so I want to push my emotions out the window and lean heavy on logic and reason and do my best not to reside in an echo chamber, even though it tends to feel so good.

We need a MATA movement imo (Make America Think Again)
 

yimyammer

Quality Starter
If this happened in the inner city and minority voters were affected, there would absolutely be consequences and there would be rioting in the streets. But since people associate Republicans with white caucasians, nothing will be done. In reality, this affected people of all races. Our voting system is a joke.

I feel you
 

dbair1967

Administrator
Didnt something similar happen in 2016 when Trump won after the polls leading up to the election suggested Clinton had it already locked up?
Not quite to this extent, they showed her with a lead (and technically, she did win the popular vote because of states like California and New York).

But they were also busted over-polling strong democrat areas to show her "lead" and try to dissuade Republican voters from turning out. Tehri hope was if they thought Trump had no chance, people would just stay home.
 

dbair1967

Administrator
Hey amigo, I consider this speculation and theory, not evidence. We need to go deeper and find how the machines were tampered with, who did it, when it happened, etc, etc
Every time someone comes forward with "evidence" the Democrats and MSM just deny it and say "that's not evidence"

Some of these are even eye-witness accounts and they downplay that too.

Again, no level headed person can look at the stuff that's gone on in 2020 and 2022 in a few key states and come to the conclusion that all is on the up and up.
 

yimyammer

Quality Starter
Every time someone comes forward with "evidence" the Democrats and MSM just deny it and say "that's not evidence"

Some of these are even eye-witness accounts and they downplay that too.

Again, no level headed person can look at the stuff that's gone on in 2020 and 2022 in a few key states and come to the conclusion that all is on the up and up.

then you're screwed because it doesnt matter what any level headed person thinks if evidence cant be brought to bear to prove the fraud
 

dbair1967

Administrator
then you're screwed because it doesnt matter what any level headed person thinks if evidence cant be brought to bear to prove the fraud
And that's exactly why the left and even some Rino's are so desperate to keep Kari Lake out of the Governor's office.

Because they know she is going to spend time and resources uncovering the truth and bringing more and more evidence out there.
 

Creeper

In the Rotation
Every time someone comes forward with "evidence" the Democrats and MSM just deny it and say "that's not evidence"

Some of these are even eye-witness accounts and they downplay that too.

Again, no level headed person can look at the stuff that's gone on in 2020 and 2022 in a few key states and come to the conclusion that all is on the up and up.

There is "evidence" and there is "proof". They are two different things. There is tons of evidence to meet probably cause thresholds. The best example is the location data collected by True the Vote on the 2020 election. The data is highly suspicious and contrary to what the left says, it has not been debunked. But, it is not proof.

So how do you get from evidence to proof? First, you need to investigate further than therein lies the rub. Democrats have resisted every attempt in the courts and in the media to allow any kind of investigation. True the Cote has the device IDs of the "2000 Mules". Now all they need is to identify the owners of the devices and question them, under oath. But no one can do that except the legal authorities like the FBI, and that is never going to happen.

In Maricopa County, there is a lot of suspicious behavior, and the Arizona AG has already taken the first step in looking for answers. We'll see where it goes. But at the end of the day it is really hard to prove voter fraud without voter canvassing and no court has been willing to allow that despite all the "evidence" of fraud.
 
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