Doomsday

High Plains Drifter
By the way they at first, tried to say that Khan looked different because of the altered timeline. When it was pointed out that the ST timeline alterations ONLY start with Kirk's birth, only then they finally admitted they made Khan a Anglo just for PC crap reasons.

They shit on everything they touch, starting with Battlestar Galactica - which in its original incarnation the Cylons were a independently evolved race of machines who wanted to eradicate all organic lifeforms, but in JJs "re-imagined" version now they are a race of robotic slaves we created, who got out of hand. Not unlike The Terminator series. JJ, Orci and that whole bunch inject their politics into everything they extrude from their anus-brains.
 

Dodger12

Super Moderator
By the way they at first, tried to say that Khan looked different because of the altered timeline. When it was pointed out that the ST timeline alterations ONLY start with Kirk's birth, only then they finally admitted they made Khan a Anglo just for PC crap reasons.

They shit on everything they touch, starting with Battlestar Galactica - which in its original incarnation the Cylons were a independently evolved race of machines who wanted to eradicate all organic lifeforms, but in JJs "re-imagined" version now they are a race of robotic slaves we created, who got out of hand. Not unlike The Terminator series. JJ, Orci and that whole bunch inject their politics into everything they extrude from their anus-brains.
I didn't know Abrams had anything to do with Battlestar Galactica. Interesting. I actually liked it for the most part but they really got in the weeds with the internal BS like love triangles, prison revolts, alcoholics and some key members of the crew who turned out to be Cylons.
 

Doomsday

High Plains Drifter
I didn't know Abrams had anything to do with Battlestar Galactica. Interesting. I actually liked it for the most part but they really got in the weeds with the internal BS like love triangles, prison revolts, alcoholics and some key members of the crew who turned out to be Cylons.
Yep that was JJ's first franchise to shit on. Set the stage for the rest of the garbage he puts out.
 

cmd34

Pro Bowler
-So Fin has been a Storm Trooper almost from birth and trained to be a fighter but he turns on the First Order after they kill the villagers. I guess the First Order became this huge fighting force, led by a wanna be Sith, whose aim is to take over the Galaxy but that didn't include killing anyone along the way.
I think that's where some of the Fin might have the Force talk comes from. One, Ren sensed him when he walked by and stopped. Two, they mentioned Fin needed re-programming and they spoke of the training for the stormtroopers, yet Fin in his first mission couldn't do it, so basically he was strong enough to resist the conditioning and training that they put the stormtroopers through.
 

dbair1967

Administrator
Guys entirely too much time is being devoted to this movie talk.

This is Cowboys-Redskins week at Jerry World. This is huge. We need to be talking strategy and stuff.
 
******SPOILER ALERT*********

It was decent and fun but I'm not sure it lived up to the hype or the SW canon. There's too many questions and shortcomings:

-How does Kylo Ren, who can stop laser blasts in mid air, lose a light saber duel with a relative novice.
-Speaking of Kylo Ren, why does he even wear a mask? I mean, he takes it off at the end but it's obviously a requirement to make him more menacing and Darth Vader like......except he's not.
-We hear about Luke who went into hiding because Ren betrayed him but we don't really get any further explanation to help develop the plot....and even then we see Luke at the end of the film but I really didn't see the urgency to finding him to give him his light saber.
-Luke was on a mission to train Jedi's but all that goes to hell when one turns. Count Doku turning didn't destroy the Jedi and I'd assume other Jedi turned to the Dark Side in SW canon since turning to the dark side is a common theme in the previous movies but Kylo Ren turns and it all ends.
-The First Order has become this fighting force but no one can explain what happened to weaken the Republic or how they came to be the "resistance" once again.
-The major confrontation with the First Order to destroy the new Death Star had no battleships and just a handful of X-Wing fighters for the Republic.
-Using the force to retrieve a light saber stuck in the snow? Been there, done that.
-So Fin has been a Storm Trooper almost from birth and trained to be a fighter but he turns on the First Order after they kill the villagers. I guess the First Order became this huge fighting force, led by a wanna be Sith, whose aim is to take over the Galaxy but that didn't include killing anyone along the way.
-Attack the new Death Star to drop the shield so the Republic could attack....been there done that.

The show would have been better, IMO, if they'd start off with the rise of the First Order and Ren turning to the Dark Side. The story was just not developed enough nor were the characters for that matter. It's a remake of the original with some sprinklings of the first trilogy thrown in there. What made the original trilogy special is the story line and character development. There was nothing fresh or new about this film.
No issues with anything in here.

I've heard that the plan is to have some of the plot holes developed in "anthology" movies that come out in the years between the next two episodes. So maybe that will explain some of these.

I guess the biggest problem I had with it was the short time frame from Rey's self-taught use of the force and beating Kylo Ren in a matter of hours. But suspension of reality has always been a hallmark of these movies IMO.

I also thought this movie felt like a re-ignition of the old themes and story lines... hoping that the next two episodes really take some major advances and feel more stand-alone. I'm almost positive they will delve much more in to Luke's intentions and thought processes in training future Jedis in the Episode VIII.
 

cmd34

Pro Bowler
I guess the biggest problem I had with it was the short time frame from Rey's self-taught use of the force and beating Kylo Ren in a matter of hours.
I got the feeling they were trying to set up (hammer us over the head) that the Force is incredibly strong with Rey. According to everything we've ever seen in the Star Wars mythology, no novice should be able to survive a light saber battle with a Sith apprentice.
 

Dodger12

Super Moderator
I think that's where some of the Fin might have the Force talk comes from. One, Ren sensed him when he walked by and stopped. Two, they mentioned Fin needed re-programming and they spoke of the training for the stormtroopers, yet Fin in his first mission couldn't do it, so basically he was strong enough to resist the conditioning and training that they put the stormtroopers through.
Did Ren sense Fin or his remorse? What baffles me about this film is that it leaves us all with too many questions....simple type questions that we shouldn't have to wait for the next film(s) to have answered IF they're answered at all.
 

Dodger12

Super Moderator
No issues with anything in here.

I've heard that the plan is to have some of the plot holes developed in "anthology" movies that come out in the years between the next two episodes. So maybe that will explain some of these.

I guess the biggest problem I had with it was the short time frame from Rey's self-taught use of the force and beating Kylo Ren in a matter of hours. But suspension of reality has always been a hallmark of these movies IMO.

I also thought this movie felt like a re-ignition of the old themes and story lines... hoping that the next two episodes really take some major advances and feel more stand-alone. I'm almost positive they will delve much more in to Luke's intentions and thought processes in training future Jedis in the Episode VIII.
Agree on all points and I responded to cmd before I saw your post. The original trilogy built off the prior movies and developed the characters as they went on. TFA really just leaves us guessing. What I don't like about Abrams is he'll take canon and just completely throw it out the window like he did with Star Trek. I get it....I'm old school and some of these young kids don't give a shit about Star Trek or Star Wars canon. But I just can't get over the fact that Rey was able to defeat Ren and Fin even got a couple of shots in too. That's too much and I think takes away Ren's fear factor like we had with Vader who was an imposing villain. Ren just doesn't do that for me, not any more anyway.
 

cmd34

Pro Bowler
Did Ren sense Fin or his remorse? What baffles me about this film is that it leaves us all with too many questions....simple type questions that we shouldn't have to wait for the next film(s) to have answered IF they're answered at all.
Finn also heard the screams of the people from the destroyed planets. Also, the Sith (Snoke) claims there has been an awakening in the force was before Rey had her awakening, which would indicate it was Finn's awakening.
 

Dodger12

Super Moderator
Finn also heard the screams of the people from the destroyed planets. Also, the Sith (Snoke) claims there has been an awakening in the force was before Rey had her awakening, which would indicate it was Finn's awakening.
Really good points but I shouldn't have to search on-line for all these hypotheticals and potential plot twists. Maybe I'm being too picky and should just accept the movie for what it is. I'm just a little bothered that there's nothing really "fresh" about it. The movie was going to make tons of money regardless but when the producers, writers and director(s) rehash old story lines, it makes me feel like it was more of a money grab and a cop out.
 

cmd34

Pro Bowler
Ren and Rey = Brother & Sister?
Han cheated on Leia? I can't see that.

In the books, which the movie writers basically said no thanks to, Han and Leia had twins, a boy and a girl.

I did think it was interesting that Kylo's real name is Ben Solo. In the books, Luke's kid was named Ben.
 
Depends on who you ask.
Here's way too much discussion about this:Wookieepedia:Canon policy - Wookieepedia - Wikia
Man I could spend hours looking at all that stuff.

So I guess the only real official canon is that which has been created by the 7 movies? Anything else that doesn't follow that story line is not canon... problem is that wasn't the case until Disney bought the franchise.

People complaining about canon issues like Ben being Solo's son's name instead of Luke's are talking about the old canon.

Confusing... and like I said, I really don't care. When Marvel makes comic books into movies, you end up with some similar issues. If the story works in the movies, then I'm good with it. Nerds arguing over what the movie got wrong from the books are nerds. I've read all but the most recent book of Game of Thrones, but I don't get bent out of shape when some changes are made for the small screen.
 

Doomsday

High Plains Drifter
So I guess the only real official canon is that which has been created by the 7 movies?
That's pretty common and it's that way for ST as well, although now it's only the original TV series and "Enterprise" considered canon. All previous movies, and all novels, books, video games, and ancillary stories are considered outside canon.

Since they are completely uncreative and incapable of any original ideas or concepts, and also since they didn't really want to study all the past episodes and movies, JJ, Orci and their team created the "alternate reality" for ST, which starts right at Kirk's birth, because they liked "Enterprise" but didn't want to mess with anything "after" that in the timeline. They said it was because they wanted to introduce new characters, ideas and concepts, and didn't want to "trip over" established canon.

But then, since they are completely uncreative and incapable of any original ideas or concepts, they left Old Spock (Spock Prime) alive and with all the canon memories intact, and brought back a villain from the original TV series. One that already had a sequel. One who was born and frozen, 300 years before Kirk was born and so therefore isn't at all affected by the time breach.

It's not that people get bent out of shape when they mess with "canon," it's that they insult our intelligence and completely dismiss all work before theirs. Or as in the case with ST, they wanted to pick and choose which works to dismiss.

But like I said, this is all okay if you are willing to check your brain at the door.
 

Doomsday

High Plains Drifter
What they did here with SW Episode VII is pretty much the same as they did with ST - create a alternate reality but this time without using the time travel plot device - allowing them to get rid of and re-name the troublesome "Empire" and "Republic" concept, without explanation. Again (because it is a established pattern with them) I believe this is their politics driving that - they don't want any possibility of there being any connotation at all that anything with "republic" in its name could possibly be the good guys! Same thing with "Empire," they love the US Govt so long as it's a Dem in the WH, and they didn't want any possibility you might make a connection between the "Evil Empire" and our current government. Yes it is that transparent and infantile - but what other possible reason can there be for these changes? It was a "if it ain't broke don't fix it" thing.

Well stay tuned of course, we haven't had the chance to write ourselves out of the corner our politics put us in yet. We'll explain the incongruous name changes in the next movie! Maybe.

It puts butts in seats and makes Disney and everyone else associated with it, billions. So why quibble?
 

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