Man Sentenced To 60 Days In Jail For Home Bible Study

[superpunk]

SP, you are not being coerced by anyone because, according to you it's all a sham.

But since you are intensely interested in the topic I shall share some useful insight which I am sure you will accept with open arms:

Let's use the pastor dude who just went to jail for an example. You said he was an idiot for not following the law...arrogant guy who thinks he should get a special pass. He got what he deserved because he didn't follow the rules. So instead of obeying he has spent time and effort saying he was persecuted, coerced and mistreated. Woe, is he and all of that, right? Pretty much the guy rejected the law and got what he deserved.

Why do you feel that it's different with the bible? I know, I know, you think it's a fairy tale. I get that. Moving past that, and let's pretend that the bible is true since you are arguing that it's coercion. Or let's just say that the bible isn't true...I don't care. It seems pretty just to me that if you don't follow the rules and you are given the option, you are the idiot for rejecting that option. Do you feel that the word coercion applies to the regular laws as well. Like say, city codes and such?

This has already been covered.

 

[lons]

I think their example was great SP, if you choose not to see that they are using man made laws as an example of God laws and showing consequences for your actions then I'm not sure where you see a diverge, except that God's law only takes effect when you are dead and unable to repent while man's law takes effect as soon as they catch you.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

The consequences of following/not following the rules should be their own retribution.

For instance, I can drink antifreeze or I cannot. The consequences are entirely related to the decision made and nothing further. If my body has an adverse reaction that is my own issue.

But you cannot make the same claim for God's coercion. You could if you got to the pearly gates and there was a door to heaven and a door to hell and God said "Pick one" after fully informing you what was behind each door. Or, if in the afterlife there were two options, both equally nice, one with God and one without. Therefore the only consequence of your choice is directly related to the decision made and nothing further - i.e. do I want to worship/be in God's presence or not.

The second pain and penalty and suffering are introduced, you have coercion. The penalty of hell is unrelated to the decision made, it is a threat.

That's all well and good except for the fact that God isn't influencing you in either direction.

How does it feel to be cut off at the knees?

 

[superpunk]

I think their example was great SP, if you choose not to see that they are using man made laws as an example of God laws and showing consequences for your actions then I'm not sure where you see a diverge,

Again, already covered.

In Christian-lore we cannot choose not to sin. So any of these arguments where the police punish you for a conscious decision you made to violate the law are invalid.

In order to get a true parallel, we would have to invent a world where the government has outlawed something it is impossible for people not to do - like breathe. When they breathe (they cannot help but breathe) the government offers them a choice. They can either say how great the government is or they cannot. This is a benign action that affects noone but the government and the individual, unlike crime in which there are victims (and hence societal repercussions). The government has simply rigged the game so that if you breathe you MUST say how awesome the government is OR they will throw you in prison.

Coercion. This is what God does.

except that God's law only takes effect when you are dead and unable to repent

So much for free will.

 

[superpunk]

That's all well and good except for the fact that God isn't influencing you in either direction.

So threatening someone isn't an attempt to influence them?

 

[Bob Sacamano]

So threatening someone isn't an attempt to influence them?

No, because it's not a threat. If you choose the ways of the world you will be going to hell.

 

[superpunk]

No, because it's not a threat. If you choose the ways of the world you will be going to hell.

It doesn't become less of a threat simply because the one making the threat can carry through with it. It's still a threat and it's still coercion.

And it has nothing to do with "choosing the ways of the world, it's about one thing" - belief in Christ, and acceptance of him as your savior and then...uh...doing your best. (At least that's the most common Christian belief I realize the sects vary in their determination of how much "works" play into salvation.) I can opt not to "choose the ways of the world" and live every bit as good a life as the most devout of Christians and if I don't believe in Christ it doesn't matter - I am simply living a good life and going to hell respectably.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Good luck then.

 

[superpunk]

Good luck then.

I won't need it but thanks.

 

[jeebus]

I won't need it but thanks.

I would guess you already need it. That kind of whole in the soul is hard to fill and most people do it unhealthily.

 

[superpunk]

I would guess you already need it. That kind of whole in the soul is hard to fill and most people do it unhealthily.

There's no such thing as a whole in your soul.

That's just another imaginary ailment invented by religion so they can sell you an imaginary cure. Here's some Ingersoll on yo asses

When I became convinced that the Universe is natural -- that
all the ghosts and gods are myths, there entered into my brain,
into my soul, into every drop of my blood, the sense, the feeling,
the joy of freedom. The walls of my prison crumbled and fell, the
dungeon was flooded with light and all the bolts, and bars, and
manacles became dust. I was no longer a servant, a serf or a slave.
There was for me no master in all the wide world -- not even in
infinite space. I was free -- free to think, to express my thoughts
-- free to live to my own ideal -- free to live for myself and
those I loved -- free to use all my faculties, all my senses --
free to spread imagination's wings -- free to investigate, to guess
and dream and hope -- free to judge and determine for myself --
free to reject all ignorant and cruel creeds, all the "inspired"
books that savages have produced, and all the barbarous legends of
the past -- free from popes and priests -- free from all the
"called" and "set apart" -- free from sanctified mistakes and holy
lies -- free from the fear of eternal pain -- free from the winged
monsters of the night -- free from devils, ghosts and gods. For the
first time I was free. There were no prohibited places in all the
realms of thought -- no air, no space, where fancy could not spread
her painted wings -- no chains for my limbs -- no lashes for my
back -- no fires for my flesh -- no master's frown or threat -- no
following another's steps -- no need to bow, or cringe, or crawl,
or utter lying words. I was free. I stood erect and fearlessly,
joyously, faced all worlds.

Amen.

 

[skidadl]

There's no such thing as a whole in your soul.

That's just another imaginary ailment invented by religion so they can sell you an imaginary cure.

Religion aside you are by far in the minority on this opinion. Various definitions of this are out there coming from just about every belief structure including psychology.

All humans have a yearning, searching, desire to fill with lusts, a drive or whatever you want to label it. There is an inner draw to find answers that is undeniable. I doubt you will find many that disagree with this, by I could be wrong. Even you are interested in religion. For some reason or other you have sought out answers for life or else you never would have asked religion questions in the first place.

 

[superpunk]

Religion aside you are by far in the minority on this opinion. Various definitions of this are out there coming from just about every belief structure including psychology.

All humans have a yearning, searching, desire to fill with lusts, a drive or whatever you want to label it. There is an inner draw to find answers that is undeniable. I doubt you will find many that disagree with this, by I could be wrong. Even you are interested in religion. For some reason or other you have sought out answers for life or else you never would have asked religion questions in the first place.

Oh I absolutely agree, all children are born scientists.

 

[skidadl]

[video=youtube;4j5h9IgwYgs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j5h9IgwYgs[/video]