QB Tidbits

[dbair1967]

Teams with starting QB's drafted they drafted in the first round:

Miami, Pittsburgh, Baltimore (Flacco injured now), Indy (Luck, injured now), Tennessee (Mariotta, injured now), Jacksonville, San Diego, NYG, Minnesota, Green Bay, Detroit, Atlanta, Tampa Bay, Carolina

Teams with starting QB's drafted in 1st rd by someone else:

Arizona, San Francisco (Gabbert, probably not the long term solution there but he is playing decent now), Chicago, Philly, Kansas City

That's not counting Denver (Manning, who was the starter but might be done now), Cleveland (Manziel, who is a huge question mark but did start some and may have started again this weekend if not for injury)

Teams with starters drafted in 2nd round (either by them or someone else)

Oakland, Cincinnati, New Orleans, San Fran* (Kapernick, who was their regular starter and is signed to a long term contract), Denver* (Osweiler, who has replaced Manning and appears to be their long term answer there now)

Teams with starters drafted 3rd round or later (or not drafted)

New England, Buffalo, NYJ, Houston, Dallas, Washington, Seattle, St Louis

Of those above, New England, Seattle and us (Dallas) all got extremely lucky and caught lightning in a bottle. Washington may have something now with Cousins. Buffalo and St Louis had both used recent 1st round picks on QB's that they since gave up on. NYJ used a 2nd rd pick on one. Washington had also used a high 1st on one that didn't work out.

 

[peplaw06]

The thing with New England and Seattle catching lightning in a bottle, is that when they drafted those guys in the later rounds, they had a former 1st round entrenched as the starter (Brady), and a guy who was going to be the presumptive starter in Matt Flynn. They didn't plan on Brady and Wilson on being as good as they are. They basically took flyers on the guys who worked out. And we've taken enough flyers on guys who didn't work for me to lose any sense of confidence in this team or front office taking a flyer on a guy who ends up panning out. Romo was plain and simple, a miracle. There's no Parcells or Payton here to bring him along... and if Carter hadn't been hitting the ganja, then we would have gotten rid of him.

The rest of the numbers IMO make it clear that if we want to get a guy we can depend on to take the reigns from Romo, we can't depend on a later round pick. And I do think this team will be better next year with Romo, so our first round pick will be lower as will our chances of finding that guy.

 

[ThoughtExperiment]

Let's be honest: The painful truth is, odds are that the QB who follows Romo will look somewhat competent for a while (because he'll have some talent) but will never be special enough to make a difference. He'll probably get the fan base excited for a little while because he'll be new and different, but then reality will set in that he's just another average starter who will never take you anywhere. That's not pessimism, that's just the reality of how difficult it is to find a top 3-4-5 QB.

And worst case, you spend a fairly high pick and still get a Locker or Ponder who can't play a lick.

Like pep said, Romo really was a miracle. That's why it's so frustrating watching his career be wasted.

 

[onlyonenow]

Romo reminds me of Ken Anderson. A hugely under rated QB that just happened to unfortunately end up in the same division at the same time as the Squealers golden era. He was the most accurate QB of that time; and that was when there was no dink and dunk type of thing or even a West Coast Offense. Came within a minute of a SB ring only because arguably the greatest QB of all time was on the other side. Alongside a HOF coach.

Romo ends up with a wasted career due to Jerry Jones. Not because he was unlucky enough to be in a division at the same time as one of the dynasty's of all time.

in today's NFL bluntly speaking you get your franchise QBs in the first rd or at the very least early in the second. Any further back and it is a true fluke; lighting in a bottle and that is it.

 

[SixisBetter]

Take a look at this from '03.
Brings home both how lucky we got with Romo,and just exactly how big a crap shoot the draft actually is.

Drafted Quarterbacks
NAME	POS	SCHOOL	ROUND	PK(OVR)	TEAM
Carson Palmer	QB	USC	1	1(1)	Cincinnati
Byron Leftwich	QB	Marshall	1	7(7)	Jacksonville
Kyle Boller	QB	California	1	19(19)	Baltimore
Rex Grossman	QB	Florida	1	22(22)	Chicago
Dave Ragone	QB	Louisville	3	24(88)	Houston
Chris Simms	QB	Texas	3	33(97)	Tampa Bay
Seneca Wallace	QB	Iowa State	4	13(110)	Seattle
Brian St. Pierre	QB	Boston College	5	28(163)	Pittsburgh
Drew Henson	QB	Michigan	6	19(192)	Houston
Brooks Bollinger	QB	Wisconsin	6	27(200)	NY Jets
Kliff Kingsbury	QB	Texas Tech	6	28(201)	New England
Gibran Hamdan	QB	Indiana	7	18(232)	Washington
Ken Dorsey	QB	Miami (FL)	7	27(241)	San Francisco

 

[Doomsday]

Romo reminds me of Ken Anderson. A hugely under rated QB that just happened to unfortunately end up in the same division at the same time as the Squealers golden era. He was the most accurate QB of that time; and that was when there was no dink and dunk type of thing or even a West Coast Offense.

Actually wasn't the entire necessity of the west coast scheme because Anderson's arm was so weak? Cincy was where it was first invented by Walsh when he was there, out of necessity originally. That's why Anderson was so accurate.

Pretty sure all of this was on the Walsh episode of "A football life."

Here's facts:

Walsh formulated what has become popularly known as the West Coast offense during his tenure as assistant coach for the Cincinnati Bengals from 1968 to 1975, while working under the tutelage of mentor Paul Brown. Bengals quarterback Virgil Carter would be the first player to successfully implement Walsh's system,[4] leading the NFL in pass completion percentage in 1971. Ken Anderson later replaced Carter as Cincinnati's starting QB, and was even more successful. In his 16-year career in the NFL, Anderson made four trips to the Pro Bowl, won four passing titles, was named NFL MVP in 1981, and set what was then the record for completion percentage in a single season in 1982 (70.66%).

Walsh installed a modified version of this system when he became head coach of the San Francisco 49ers.

So Anderson WAS dink and dunk, but wasn't the one who had the weak arm necessitating it.

 

[Omegasupreme]

Actually wasn't the entire necessity of the west coast scheme because Anderson's arm was so weak? Cincy was where it was first invented by Walsh when he was there, out of necessity originally. That's why Anderson was so accurate.

Pretty sure all of this was on the Walsh episode of "A football life."

Here's facts:

So Anderson WAS dink and dunk, but wasn't the one who had the weak arm necessitating it.

Well, I think the big picture and correlation with Brady or Bree's or Anderson or Montana or anyone who has successfully coached Alex Smith is spending the time creating a scheme and/or compilation of plays that allows the QB to both be effective for the team and creative in his skillset. It's one thing to allow the QB to be effective with high percentage passes but once the defense begins to solve the dink and dunk and the QB has nothing else to do, the QB fails the team. But like in the case of Parcells to Romo, he wanted him to see the clear pass plays, without sack or interception, and then make plays with his feet. Parcells wanted the passes to be fundamentally sound because a lot has to go right just for a pass to be completed. But if Romo runs for the basic gains, Parcells was fine with it.

I saw a mic'd up Romo and Parcells exchange where Parcells was furious at what we would now call "Romo magic" because it was an improbable flip on the wrong foot. Jason would look at that and say "Well we liked what the defense was giving us in order that Tony was able to make that play with an underhanded non-dominant transitional pass. The fact that the defensive pressure was so devastating that Tony was close to losing a lung, his spleen and his occipital lobe is really only a detail and more of a testament to how flexible our system is. You want NFL players to play NFL football."

 

[ThoughtExperiment]

Actually wasn't the entire necessity of the west coast scheme because Anderson's arm was so weak? Cincy was where it was first invented by Walsh when he was there, out of necessity originally. That's why Anderson was so accurate.

Pretty sure all of this was on the Walsh episode of "A football life."

Here's facts:

So Anderson WAS dink and dunk, but wasn't the one who had the weak arm necessitating it.

I don't remember if Virgil Carter was the one without looking it up (though I thought it was a different name?) but the original QB in that offense had a huge arm but tore up his shoulder, robbing him of all his arm strength. So Walsh was forced to adapt and totally change his scheme to all the short passes we came to know as the WCO.

Can anyone imagine this coaching staff doing that?

But like in the case of Parcells to Romo, he wanted him to see the clear pass plays, without sack or interception, and then make plays with his feet. Parcells wanted the passes to be fundamentally sound because a lot has to go right just for a pass to be completed. But if Romo runs for the basic gains, Parcells was fine with it.

I also remember a story I think Peter King did about the year Romo took over. Pretty sure he was in camp that year when Parcells really liked Romo and knew he was playing well, but Bledsoe had a great preseason and kept his job.

Anyway, King said there was some play they were trying to run but Parcells said Bledsoe just couldn't execute it well enough. Parcells turned to one of the assistants and said, "But I could run that with Romo." Probably some bootleg or rollout or something. But the point is how adaptable Parcells was to the talents of his personnel.

 

[yimyammer]

And worst case, you spend a fairly high pick and still get a Locker or Ponder who can't play a lick.

and you know damn well they'll give this guy 3-4 years to try and figure it out until its painfully obvious they have to cut bait when they probably should have done so after year one or two

I see the Cowboys cruising past 30 years without a super bowl with ease if they cant pull off a miracle with Romo

 

[yimyammer]

Lets say we find out before the draft that Romo has to retire

Lets also imagine we have an excellent scouting department and they conclude none of the QBs available this year warrant a grade higher than a 3rd round pick.

Do you still take a QB in the first round simply because you're desperate?

I think you should pass on over-drafting a QB but I think a lot of teams do and it seems like a waste of a high pick as well as a progress stopper to finding the guy that can stick

 

[onlyonenow]

Actually wasn't the entire necessity of the west coast scheme because Anderson's arm was so weak? Cincy was where it was first invented by Walsh when he was there, out of necessity originally. That's why Anderson was so accurate.

Pretty sure all of this was on the Walsh episode of "A football life."

Here's facts:

So Anderson WAS dink and dunk, but wasn't the one who had the weak arm necessitating it.

don't know where you got the idea Ken Anderson had a weak arm. You clearly know very little about him. And he was NOT dink and dunk.

 

[onlyonenow]

the only realistic place to get a QB with the hope of being a true top 5 guy is the first rd. There have only been 3 QBs over the past 20 years to reach that level without being drafted in the 1st rd (ok Brees but he was drafted like first pick in the second rd) Warner, Brady, Romo.

 

[Doomsday]

don't know where you got the idea Ken Anderson had a weak arm. You clearly know very little about him. And he was NOT dink and dunk.

Cant dispute the fact he lived in west coast dink and dunk? It's just a fact. Check the link.

You said there was no west coast or dink and dunk when Anderson played and you're simply flat wrong about that.

 

[yimyammer]

the only realistic place to get a QB with the hope of being a true top 5 guy is the first rd. There have only been 3 QBs over the past 20 years to reach that level without being drafted in the 1st rd (ok Brees but he was drafted like first pick in the second rd) Warner, Brady, Romo.

perhaps so, but that doesn't make it a good idea when the QBs coming out don't warrant a high pick but I'm not saying this years class doesn't, I'm not qualified to say.

I just hear the chatter that the QBs this year aren't that good and if that's accurate, I'd hate to waste a pick because even though most QBs are picked in the first, Id bet a greater number of QBs picked with 1st round picks never pan out.

On the other hand, if Goff or Lynch is gonna be a stud in the NFL and is available when Dallas picks, I think they have to pick em

 

[peplaw06]

Lets say we find out before the draft that Romo has to retire

Lets also imagine we have an excellent scouting department and they conclude none of the QBs available this year warrant a grade higher than a 3rd round pick.

Do you still take a QB in the first round simply because you're desperate?

I think you should pass on over-drafting a QB but I think a lot of teams do and it seems like a waste of a high pick as well as a progress stopper to finding the guy that can stick

No, you don't reach for a QB.... at least not more than a few slots on your draft board. If we had a guy rated at the lower end of the first round, then I don't know that I'd call that a reach. If you really want the guy and you can be assured of coming away with him, go for it.

But it appears the consensus is that Goff and Lynch will have first round grades, also possibly Cook and Wentz.

 

[Omegasupreme]

No, you don't reach for a QB.... at least not more than a few slots on your draft board. If we had a guy rated at the lower end of the first round, then I don't know that I'd call that a reach. If you really want the guy and you can be assured of coming away with him, go for it.

But it appears the consensus is that Goff and Lynch will have first round grades, also possibly Cook and Wentz.

Contrasting from this past debacle of an offseason, I'm hoping they prepare with with a definite starter (Romo) and the next messiah. Same with RB and vertical speed playmaker at WR etc. Jerry saw that the glaring weakness is that the coaches are not, or have not been given, player development for depth or emergency replacement. Jerry saw that despite Jason relishing the coaching greats of Belichick, Krzyzewski, and Saban, Jason does more watching their practices rather than practicing what they practice. Steve Young made the point that Belichick brings new and replacement players on even during the season and requires them to master the game plan for the next week - they test them during the weeks and forsake all distractions during the week.

 

[yimyammer]

Steve Young made the point that Belichick brings new and replacement players on even during the season and requires them to master the game plan for the next week - they test them during the weeks and forsake all distractions during the week.

love that, seems like such an obvious thing to do, seems like he grooms players like its college knowing players will only be around for 3 to 4 years.

I've always thought they should do conditioning drills where they are tested mentally at the same time.

For example, run a 100 yard sprint, immediately get a question asked about your position assignment, etc, get it wrong, run again. Tell the players up front its gonna be 10 sprints if you know your shit or you could be here all night (or eventually off the team) if you don't

 

[onlyonenow]

Cant dispute the fact he lived in west coast dink and dunk? It's just a fact. Check the link.

You said there was no west coast or dink and dunk when Anderson played and you're simply flat wrong about that.

you do know the difference between Dink and Dunk and the Original West Coast Offense Walsh started?
Don't rely on wiki do your own research. Ken Anderson had a very good arm; and just to make you squirm a little more check his YPA ratio. If you dare.

 

[Doomsday]

you do know the difference between Dink and Dunk and the Original West Coast Offense Walsh started?
Don't rely on wiki do your own research. Ken Anderson had a very good arm; and just to make you squirm a little more check his YPA ratio. If you dare.

You said there was no west coast or dink and dunk when Anderson played and you're simply flat wrong about that. There was, and he was. His higher completion percentages of his time reflect the fact that most of his passes were the dink and dunk variety, in the Paul Brown/Bill Walsh "Ohio River Offense" which Walsh later adopted for use at San Fran.

Additionally, I never said Anderson didn't have a good arm. Can you not read?

check his YPA ratio. If you dare.

Pretend all you want that YPA (Yards per Attempt?) isn't heavily influenced by high completion percentage, and YAC yards after catch. Catch of the dink, and/or dunk.

Being myself, old enough to have actually watched Anderson play both on TV and in person at Texas Stadium, I didn't need Wiki to tell me anything. I linked it for your benefit, and you learned something.

Also your premise that he is at all comparable to Romo as far as being underrated is silly. Anderson was drafted in the third round, Romo was never drafted. Anderson wasn't underrated, they got it about right especially considering the draft class he was in.

 

[yimyammer]

Dooms, you're like a dog on a bone, did you and Hostile get into endless internet arguments until he took his ball and went own?

SWIDT?