Posted by Rafael at Sunday, February 24, 2013
Some Combine notes from TD with two days down. He speculates that some of Dallas' offensive line targets may be in play for the team's 18th pick.
TD: Where do you want to start today, offensive line?
Cowboys Nation: That' a fine place to start. A few weeks ago you told us you expected Jonathan Cooper and Lane Johnson to test really well, and they both did. When this happens, does it affect the draft order, and has anybody shaken up the offensive line order after Saturday's tests?
TD: I don't think you'll see a major shakeup at the offensive line, because of the position. You might see more of a mix-up today with the quarterbacks, running backs and receivers going, and they're so speed intensive. Geno Smith probably helped himself today by running in the 4.56 range. The receiver Robert Woods from USC had a good time.
Obviously with Lane Johnson you have a good athlete, but he's not as good a football player as Eric Fisher or Luke Joeckel. Johnson looks much better when they were running in shorts but as soon as the position drills began, Joeckel looked more fluid, dropping into his base, flipping his hips and turning.
I don't think there was a lot of movement. I heard an interesting point on this from Ryan Grigson, the Colts GM. He said that going into the Combine he's hoping his targets have sub-par workouts so they can fall down boards a bit and he can get a value.
On the score people were all over Chance Warmack yesterday for running 5.5s. He's a guard! But now nobody is going to leave the Combine saying, "wow, did you see Chance work out? He was phenomenal!" They're saying, "meh."
I think for the offensive linemen, the so-so workouts could hurt guys a little bit and it could end up helping teams that are looking for them and who didn't think they had a shot at a Warmack. Larry Warford was in the same boat. I think he ran in the 5.5 range, which isn't great, but he's a straight-line guard.
I think some of the teams eyeing them could be licking their chops, thinking that Warmack and Warford could both go 5-10 spots lower than people projected a week ago.
CN: Last year something very similar happened in the Cowboys' world. I was told after the Combine that he Dallas brass was happy that LSU's Michael Brockers had a so-so workout and that Dontari Poe was getting so much buzz, because the Cowboys really liked Brockers and didn't think going in that he would fall to 14.
As things turned out, Brockers fell to 14 and was taken there by the Rams. Had Dallas stayed put you would have likely seen Morris Claiborne go 6 and Brockers 14 but to the St. Louis and Dallas respectively. What Grigson described happens quite a bit it seems.
TD: Grigson mentioned two players like this. He said the Colts had a late 1st, early 2nd grade on tight end Dwayne Allen, and he ran a 4.85 at the Combine. People didn't think he was a great athlete, so he fell to the 3rd and Grigson felt he got a steal.
The same with Vick Ballard. Indy gave him a 2nd round running back grade. He ran a 4.6 and fell to the 5th round, and the Colts felt they got a 2nd round value there.
Both of those guys were productive as rookies and look like they're going to be productive players in the league.
It's going to be interesting to see if something like this happens at the interior O-line spots. Athleticism is important, but 40 times really are not.
CN: Give us your take on two stories that came out last night. It seems that Manti Te'o is surviving his weekend and is mending his reputation. Conversely, some unflattering information was coming out about LSU defensive end Sam Montgomery and his poor work ethic.
TD: In Montgomery's situation, NFL scouts take more information and put more stock into what the strength and conditioning coach says than any other coach on a team's staff. Because these are the coaches who spend the most time with the players. And it's a lot like your office situations. When the boss is away, how do you behave? If the head coach is not around, how do these players work? The strength and conditioning coaches know that.
Te'o sounded like a politician. I wasn't there asking the questions, but he seems to be owning it, and admitting he made a mistake.
CN: Will this news hurt Montgomery?
TD: I think it will. You might remember Georgia's Carlos Dunlap was talked up as a 1st round pick a couple of years ago and he didn't test well. That's because he wasn't well conditioned. So Dunlap falls into the 2nd and the Bengals ended up getting a mini-steal, because he grew up a bit and had nine sacks one year and six in another. On the other hand, you have UCLA's Brian Price who also didn't test out great, and slipped into the 2nd, and now he's on his third team. [That team is Dallas.]
From a draft perspective? I think Montgomery would have made a strong run at the top 15, certainly top 20 had he really worked out well. Now I think he goes somewhere in that 2nd round range where a team does not have to invest that much. It could be good for him, in that it forces him to get his priorities straight. Or, it could be bad for him if he's not accountable for his actions.
Anytime you have a strength coach who bad mouths you, I can't think of a guy who survived that and stayed in the 1st round.
It could be good for a team if he gets it together, because he's a 1st round athlete, but teams won't invest 1st-round money in a guy who hasn't shown he'll work hard.
CN: This sounds like the Grigson scenario, only this time the guy slides because of character questions, not because of a sloppy workout.
If this goes happen, Montgomery is the kind of guy who could end up driving Cowboys fans crazy because he's the kind of guy this team has been willing to take in the 2nd round, somebody with a 1st round grade but with some dings. Dallas is a lot like Cincinnati that way; the organization is more forgiving. The difference is that the Bengals have had one of the highest numbers of early round picks in recent years where Dallas has one of the lowest, so the damage from a Bengals miss is less than one by the Cowboys.
TD: He's a boom-or-bust guy. He defines the term. From what I've heard, I'd be very surprised if he went even late 1st round.
CN: What about Jarvis Jones? I'm hearing conflicting reports on him. One that a third of the teams have taken him off their boards because of a spinal stenosis concern and another report that he's okay.
TD: I still have to do more digging on this. His is a delicate story. He says he checked out yesterday, but historically guys with any kind of question fall. We were talking about him as a top-5 pick not that long ago, but teams that pick up there want crystal clean prospects. Warren Sapp fell out of the top 5 and even the top 10 because he had a black mark by his name.
When you draft early you want clean prospects. I don't think Jarvis Jones falls out of the 1st round but it's realistic now that he'll fall out of the top 10.
CN: So here's a player who could wind up sliding to a good team, say a Steelers or a Patriots, who can afford the risk more than most.
TD: There's no stable template for all 32 teams, whether it's physical issues, mental issues or medical issues. Every team is going to evaluate him differently. But it only takes one. Teams do, however, share the philosophy of wanting clean prospects high. I think somewhere around the 14-15 mark, there seems to be this unwritten rule that once you're past the top 15 that teams will roll the dice a little more. I would not be surprised to see Jarvis Jones outside the top 15.
Some Combine notes from TD with two days down. He speculates that some of Dallas' offensive line targets may be in play for the team's 18th pick.
TD: Where do you want to start today, offensive line?
Cowboys Nation: That' a fine place to start. A few weeks ago you told us you expected Jonathan Cooper and Lane Johnson to test really well, and they both did. When this happens, does it affect the draft order, and has anybody shaken up the offensive line order after Saturday's tests?
TD: I don't think you'll see a major shakeup at the offensive line, because of the position. You might see more of a mix-up today with the quarterbacks, running backs and receivers going, and they're so speed intensive. Geno Smith probably helped himself today by running in the 4.56 range. The receiver Robert Woods from USC had a good time.
Obviously with Lane Johnson you have a good athlete, but he's not as good a football player as Eric Fisher or Luke Joeckel. Johnson looks much better when they were running in shorts but as soon as the position drills began, Joeckel looked more fluid, dropping into his base, flipping his hips and turning.
I don't think there was a lot of movement. I heard an interesting point on this from Ryan Grigson, the Colts GM. He said that going into the Combine he's hoping his targets have sub-par workouts so they can fall down boards a bit and he can get a value.
On the score people were all over Chance Warmack yesterday for running 5.5s. He's a guard! But now nobody is going to leave the Combine saying, "wow, did you see Chance work out? He was phenomenal!" They're saying, "meh."
I think for the offensive linemen, the so-so workouts could hurt guys a little bit and it could end up helping teams that are looking for them and who didn't think they had a shot at a Warmack. Larry Warford was in the same boat. I think he ran in the 5.5 range, which isn't great, but he's a straight-line guard.
I think some of the teams eyeing them could be licking their chops, thinking that Warmack and Warford could both go 5-10 spots lower than people projected a week ago.
CN: Last year something very similar happened in the Cowboys' world. I was told after the Combine that he Dallas brass was happy that LSU's Michael Brockers had a so-so workout and that Dontari Poe was getting so much buzz, because the Cowboys really liked Brockers and didn't think going in that he would fall to 14.
As things turned out, Brockers fell to 14 and was taken there by the Rams. Had Dallas stayed put you would have likely seen Morris Claiborne go 6 and Brockers 14 but to the St. Louis and Dallas respectively. What Grigson described happens quite a bit it seems.
TD: Grigson mentioned two players like this. He said the Colts had a late 1st, early 2nd grade on tight end Dwayne Allen, and he ran a 4.85 at the Combine. People didn't think he was a great athlete, so he fell to the 3rd and Grigson felt he got a steal.
The same with Vick Ballard. Indy gave him a 2nd round running back grade. He ran a 4.6 and fell to the 5th round, and the Colts felt they got a 2nd round value there.
Both of those guys were productive as rookies and look like they're going to be productive players in the league.
It's going to be interesting to see if something like this happens at the interior O-line spots. Athleticism is important, but 40 times really are not.
CN: Give us your take on two stories that came out last night. It seems that Manti Te'o is surviving his weekend and is mending his reputation. Conversely, some unflattering information was coming out about LSU defensive end Sam Montgomery and his poor work ethic.
TD: In Montgomery's situation, NFL scouts take more information and put more stock into what the strength and conditioning coach says than any other coach on a team's staff. Because these are the coaches who spend the most time with the players. And it's a lot like your office situations. When the boss is away, how do you behave? If the head coach is not around, how do these players work? The strength and conditioning coaches know that.
Te'o sounded like a politician. I wasn't there asking the questions, but he seems to be owning it, and admitting he made a mistake.
CN: Will this news hurt Montgomery?
TD: I think it will. You might remember Georgia's Carlos Dunlap was talked up as a 1st round pick a couple of years ago and he didn't test well. That's because he wasn't well conditioned. So Dunlap falls into the 2nd and the Bengals ended up getting a mini-steal, because he grew up a bit and had nine sacks one year and six in another. On the other hand, you have UCLA's Brian Price who also didn't test out great, and slipped into the 2nd, and now he's on his third team. [That team is Dallas.]
From a draft perspective? I think Montgomery would have made a strong run at the top 15, certainly top 20 had he really worked out well. Now I think he goes somewhere in that 2nd round range where a team does not have to invest that much. It could be good for him, in that it forces him to get his priorities straight. Or, it could be bad for him if he's not accountable for his actions.
Anytime you have a strength coach who bad mouths you, I can't think of a guy who survived that and stayed in the 1st round.
It could be good for a team if he gets it together, because he's a 1st round athlete, but teams won't invest 1st-round money in a guy who hasn't shown he'll work hard.
CN: This sounds like the Grigson scenario, only this time the guy slides because of character questions, not because of a sloppy workout.
If this goes happen, Montgomery is the kind of guy who could end up driving Cowboys fans crazy because he's the kind of guy this team has been willing to take in the 2nd round, somebody with a 1st round grade but with some dings. Dallas is a lot like Cincinnati that way; the organization is more forgiving. The difference is that the Bengals have had one of the highest numbers of early round picks in recent years where Dallas has one of the lowest, so the damage from a Bengals miss is less than one by the Cowboys.
TD: He's a boom-or-bust guy. He defines the term. From what I've heard, I'd be very surprised if he went even late 1st round.
CN: What about Jarvis Jones? I'm hearing conflicting reports on him. One that a third of the teams have taken him off their boards because of a spinal stenosis concern and another report that he's okay.
TD: I still have to do more digging on this. His is a delicate story. He says he checked out yesterday, but historically guys with any kind of question fall. We were talking about him as a top-5 pick not that long ago, but teams that pick up there want crystal clean prospects. Warren Sapp fell out of the top 5 and even the top 10 because he had a black mark by his name.
When you draft early you want clean prospects. I don't think Jarvis Jones falls out of the 1st round but it's realistic now that he'll fall out of the top 10.
CN: So here's a player who could wind up sliding to a good team, say a Steelers or a Patriots, who can afford the risk more than most.
TD: There's no stable template for all 32 teams, whether it's physical issues, mental issues or medical issues. Every team is going to evaluate him differently. But it only takes one. Teams do, however, share the philosophy of wanting clean prospects high. I think somewhere around the 14-15 mark, there seems to be this unwritten rule that once you're past the top 15 that teams will roll the dice a little more. I would not be surprised to see Jarvis Jones outside the top 15.
