*Unless you're Garrett

[junk]

Parcells - 10-6 and a playoff berth with Quincy and Hambrick. That should have locked in that HOF bust

But agree that he wasn't what he used to be by the time he got to Dallas

 

[yimyammer]

Stephen might though once Jerry is out of the picture.

thats the last hope for my lifetime

 

[MrB]

thats the last hope for my lifetime

I'm also hoping that Stephen (and Charlotte) isn't a cheap owner. Sometimes he has a tendency to lean that way.

 

[ThoughtExperiment]

Meh, feels like some people like Yim (not just him) don't even want to try a new coach. How do we know the next coach necessarily has to be a spineless bootlicker like Garrett?

Garrett has been Jerry's plan since before Parcells, and Phillips was the expedient to that end. We don't even know what he would do next. And I still say a Gruden could have a big, alpha personality *and* the charisma to manage Jerry. Iow, the opposite of a bitch like Garrett.

 

[dbair1967]

Yep, that's why I want a REAL head coach as the next hire. .

fify

 

[yimyammer]

Meh, feels like some people like Yim (not just him) don't even want to try a new coach.

I'm fine with trying a new coach, I just don't think it will make a difference.

While the new coach may not have the issues people hate about Garrett, he most definitely won't be an alpha male and will be the passive type jeri feels comfortable with. He will be undermined by jeri and it will only be a matter of time until everyone is calling for his head and ripping him a new one.

So my point is jeri is the problem and all the hate toward Garrett should pale in comparison to the idiot that hired him in the first place.

jeri is the biggest impediment to winning imo and that takes the wind out of my sails. He deserves all the wrath everyone throws at Garrett. I don't say this as a defense of Garrett as he's certainly lacking in many respects.

I had hope that Garrett could be that guy because of reasons I've mentioned in the past but those hopes have been dashed

Changing coaches is merely moving deck chairs around on the titanic and every coach since Jimmy (even Parcels for god sakes) eventually gets run off & ripped by fans and I think that's the way its going to be until jeri is 6 feet under.

I just hope Stephen isn't a chip off the old block

 

[ThoughtExperiment]

Heh, I know we've had this conversation many times so I won't belabor it, but I just disagree.

Yes, Jerry is ultimately to blame because this was all his plan. No doubt. However, that doesn't mean Garrett doesn't suck balls and a different coach wouldn't help this team on the field. It also doesn't mean the next coach will be a Garrett clone, only without the flaming hair. Again I ask, do you not believe the reports that Jerry would have hired Zimmer if he'd canned Garrett after the third 8-8? Because he couldn't be more different from Garrett in pretty much every way, especially personality.

 

[yimyammer]

And I still say a Gruden could have a big, alpha personality *and* the charisma to manage Jerry.

I just dont see that, he strikes me as a fraud, faux tough guy. When he comments on players, everyone of them is an all pro, I bet he would drive cowboy fans bonkers in no time

 

[ThoughtExperiment]

Well he does that as an analyst. I don't think he did that as a coach.

At least I've never heard a player of his say he did. If anything it was the opposite, that maybe he rode them too much.

 

[yimyammer]

Heh, I know we've had this conversation many times so I won't belabor it, but I just disagree.

Yes, Jerry is ultimately to blame because this was all his plan. No doubt. However, that doesn't mean Garrett doesn't suck balls and a different coach wouldn't help this team on the field. It also doesn't mean the next coach will be a Garrett clone, only without the flaming hair. Again I ask, do you not believe the reports that Jerry would have hired Zimmer if he'd canned Garrett after the third 8-8? Because he couldn't be more different from Garrett in pretty much every way, especially personality.

We're just chewing the fat amigo (imo) not trying to have a dumb internet fight.

I dont know, I don't recall hearing reports that jeri would have hired Zimmer (I wish he had though).

But if jeri were to hire Zimmer (who I like and would love to have here), he would structure the contract to limit his power as well as other silly shit like how credit will be distributed if they win a super bowl (see Parcells contract). So right off the bat, we wouldn't see the same Zimmer here that you see in Minnesota and that will only get worse over time as jeri continually undermines his head coach and the chain of command, both publicly and privately.

He (or any coach) wouldn't command ultimate respect with the players because jeri wont give him that power

Then jeri will pull his gambles in the drafts (like we've seen for the last 5+ years in the second round) taking a toll on the roster Zimmer would have to manage.**

Jeri will also wear the team and coaches out with nonsense like giving seminars to Star members and a variety of other things that take time and attention away from the #1 goal of winning.

jeri will also throw in that odd ball player like Hardy (I believe to draw attention to himself and the team) adding a further obstacle for a coach to deal with. I could go on and on and on....

Its hard enough trying to coach the kardashians of the NFL, whom every team always gets up for to beat, but when you add all the other nonsense jeri brings to the table, it makes winning it all extremely difficult and virtually impossible.

In this day of parity, I believe you have to find & utilize every conceivable edge imaginable to give your team the best chance of winning but I dont believe jeri sees this and punts edges on a consistent basis, making winning unnecessarily more difficult.

I agree that Zimmer is a better coach and there are many others better than Garrett and I would like them here as I am tired of the Garrett show but I dont believe any will be successful with jeri "doing it his way". (and by successful I mean winning consistently in the playoffs and super bowl)

When jeri is finally out of the picture, I hope I am able to change this opinion but I'm honestly getting a little concerned about Stephen because I have heard him say multiple times how much fun it is trying to build a team which implies he wont be hiring a GM should jeri depart or acquiesce.

** look at the last 7 years of 2nd round draft picks:

2016 pick #34 - Jaylon Smith (injured, cant play..maybe ever!)
2015 pick #60 - Randy Gregory (suspended and in drug rehab, probably done but they'll hang on til the bitter end)
2014 picks #47 & 78 (to move up to #34) - Demarcus Lawrence (currently suspended and will miss 4 games)
2013 #47 - Gavin Escobar (coming off injury, career: 26 recs, 303 yards, 7 TDs)
2012 picks #14 and 45 - Morris Claiborne (on a one year deal, been a massive disappointment so far given the cost)
2011 pick #40 - Bruce Carter (off the team since the end of 2014)
2010 picks #59 & #125 - Sean Lee (the best of all the players selected in this round but health is always a concern and he is starting the year with an unknown knee issue)

So over the last 7 years, the Cowboys have used ten draft picks (9 of them utilized for defense) and when they open against the giants in a week+, they will only have 2: Sean Lee (maybe? How bad is the injury? Are the Cowboys down playing it and we're about to get the bad news?) and Morris Claiborne available to play on defense.

I dont know how decisions are being made in that building but it sure looks like they decided to give the 2nd round to jeri and let him gamble it up as a compromise to trying to use the other picks on safer, more solid selections. Pure speculation I know, but I'm not so sure its that far from the truth.

It appears to me this is one example of the jeri jones effect.

 

[yimyammer]

Well he does that as an analyst. I don't think he did that as a coach.

At least I've never heard a player of his say he did. If anything it was the opposite, that maybe he rode them too much.

Its just a gut feel I have about him which has served me well at the poker table and elsewhere in life but isn't always correct, so perhaps you're correct and I'm out of my mind (even more than usual, eh?)

 

[ThoughtExperiment]

Definitely just chewing the fat and never any hard feelings, amigo.

I'd answer like this: I don't think it's necessary for a coach to run everything and have final say on every decision. In fact the vast majority of coaches don't have that power. Most coaches (e.g. Andy Reid) have found they do a worse job when they try to do too much more than just coaching the team.

You say we wouldn't see the same Zimmer here that we do in Minny and I ask why not? Jerry wouldn't let him unilaterally cut players, but only a couple of coaches can do that anyway and I'm sure Zimmer isn't one of them. Jerry wouldn't let him run the draft room, but most coaches don't get to do that either.

I think you underestimate the power a coach has in the day to day running of the team that has nothing to do with the draft room or even cutting players off the team. Jerry wouldn't prevent Zim from doing the things that make him good, like chewing a player's ass in practice, or challenging a him in the media, or temporarily making him third team to send a message. Zimmer wouldn't suddenly change from his demanding, ass-kicking ways just because of Jerry. We know this because Zim was a demanding ass-kicker when he was here working for Jerry. There are even documented stories of him standing up to Jerry in draft meetings (2002 Peter King story).

And that's not even to speak of mismanaging actual games -- time management, player deployment, etc. like Garrett does.

TLDR: Jerry is a pain in the ass and a hindrance but he doesn't automatically make a coach lose his entire personality or become a poor coach. (And if he tried, IMO Zim would have enough backbone to quit, unlike our Red Politician who'd rather trade his nutsack for a paycheck.)

 

[yimyammer]

Definitely just chewing the fat and never any hard feelings, amigo.

I'd answer like this: I don't think it's necessary for a coach to run everything and have final say on every decision. In fact the vast majority of coaches don't have that power. Most coaches (e.g. Andy Reid) have found they do a worse job when they try to do too much more than just coaching the team.

You say we wouldn't see the same Zimmer here that we do in Minny and I ask why not? Jerry wouldn't let him unilaterally cut players, but only a couple of coaches can do that anyway and I'm sure Zimmer isn't one of them. Jerry wouldn't let him run the draft room, but most coaches don't get to do that either.

I think you underestimate the power a coach has in the day to day running of the team that has nothing to do with the draft room or even cutting players off the team. Jerry wouldn't prevent Zim from doing the things that make him good, like chewing a player's ass in practice, or challenging a him in the media, or temporarily making him third team to send a message. Zimmer wouldn't suddenly change from his demanding, ass-kicking ways just because of Jerry. We know this because Zim was a demanding ass-kicker when he was here working for Jerry. There are even documented stories of him standing up to Jerry in draft meetings (2002 Peter King story).

And that's not even to speak of mismanaging actual games -- time management, player deployment, etc. like Garrett does.

TLDR: Jerry is a pain in the ass and a hindrance but he doesn't automatically make a coach lose his entire personality or become a poor coach. (And if he tried, IMO Zim would have enough backbone to quit, unlike our Red Politician who'd rather trade his nutsack for a paycheck.)

You make some fair points, I'm admittedly so beaten down by 20+ years of jeris bullshit, I have just about lost all ability to see things in a positive light and certainly that clouds my judgement and prevents me from being as rational as a strive to be (I can hear y'all laughing but I really do strive for this, despite how I may come across here).

warning---> rant to follow

The reason I don't think he would be successful here is because I think chewing ass rings hollow once the players realize the coach has no teeth. Its subtle but when you see there are never any negative consequences for any actions, an ass chewing falls on deaf ears. Its not merely about being in total control of personal (which I think is detrimental and too big of a job for one person-I advocate for a strong GM & coach working together like in Seattle), but it is important to have the buck stop with the coach and a clear chain of command where the players respect and follow the top of that chain (the coach). It doesn't guarantee success and there certainly can be outliers where a team wins in spite of their coach (95 Cowboys) but with the salary cap and free agency, winning this way has become an extreme long shot.

I'm a big chain of command guy because I've run my own building and construction company for 20+ years and Ive seen the detrimental effect when I broke the chain. I hired a project manager to run my jobs but everyone who worked for us knew I wrote the checks and was the final authority on all things. I didn't have to hold press conferences to continually emphasize this, I didn't have to tell my employees and subcontractors, it was self evident to anyone with half a brain, I never felt the need to feed my ego to emphasize this and it would have been incredible self destructive and petty had I chosen to do so.

Where the chain of command really mattered was in the field. I design the houses and no one knows them better than I do. Oftentimes, when I would stop by the job site, I would get pummeled with questions by the subcontractors regarding various issues related to their scope of work. Despite knowing the answer, I refused to answer and told them they needed to speak with my project manager. This empowered the person I hired to do his job and made it clear to all involved who they needed to speak to should they ever have a question.

I wish I could say I didn't have to learn this the hard way but I did. I initially answered questions whenever they came up but that ended up costing me time, money, stress and tension with both the subcontractor and my project manager because I would end up making a decision in the field my project manager didn't know about and then he would get pissed at the sub and tell him he did ________(insert task here) wrong and have him fix it. Then I would get billed twice and I would be pissed at everyone and everyone was pissed at me and each other, all because of poor communication brought about from me breaking the chain of command. The irony is I thought I was being helpful but it caused nothing but chaos. This was easily fixed when I restored the chain of command. Field sub--->Project Mgr--->Me

I think the way jeri continually talks to the press and contradicts the coach, limits the power of his coach, completely emasculates the coach by coming down to the sidelines in the middle of a game, sticking unreliable (whether injured or drug risk) players on the team, reluctance to be critical of anyone or anything, etc, etc, etc all add up to a huge burden on a coach and ultimately make him look weak. If a coach ever decided to throw down the gauntlet with jeri, he would only end up getting fired.

At jeris age with the stadium paid for, more cash than he could ever spend, the fans have absolutely zero leverage against him. He is not about to put up with anything he doesn't like and he doesn't like an environment that isn't fun. The problem is that the environment required for successful football is rarely fun, its a blast in retrospect when it results in championships, but like anything worthwhile, the process is a grind and often painful (thus why I'm perpetually fat).

Now if you think that Zimmer is the type to get in jeris face and be persuasive in the process without getting fired while also keeping a decent chain of command in place and maintaining the respect of and authority over the players, then I'd agree with you, Zimmer would be a helluva coach here and I wish he had been hired.

Do you have a link to that Peter King story?

 

[cmd34]

I get the feeling that Jerry has his money and his stadium so he doesn't have to change a thing.

That's true but then he's going to die a loser on a two decade-losing streak of his own creation. He went the Al David route rather than the George Steinbrenner route. His legacy won't be the stadium or the 90's Super Bowls. His legacy will be just like Al Davis, a myopic loser who literally set his franchise back 20 plus years.

 

[theoneandonly]

I get the feeling that Jerry has his money and his stadium so he doesn't have to change a thing.

That's true but then he's going to die a loser on a two decade-losing streak of his own creation. He went the Al David route rather than the George Steinbrenner route. His legacy won't be the stadium or the 90's Super Bowls. His legacy will be just like Al Davis, a myopic loser who literally set his franchise back 20 plus years.

Jerry doesnt live on the same planet as the rest of us, apparently he doesnt have to. BTW Steinbrenner pulled off the impossible by dying the only year the country didnt have an inheritance tax insuring that his nitwit kids would be able to continue the team without it costing them a penny.

 

[ThoughtExperiment]

Googled the story but couldn't find it. Booze posted it a few years ago. Maybe I can find it later.

But funny, I worked for years for a family business in construction, too.

In a nutshell: I think you're overestimating the firing factor. Many players in this league know they won't or even can't be fired because of their contract. That doesn't mean their coach can't motivate them. Zimmer brings in Terence Newman and the first thing he tells him is, "What's wrong with you? Your technique is shit. I don't know if you can play anymore." You think Garrett would ever do that? You think Jerry is the one preventing him from doing so? No, it just isn't Garrett's nature. It is Zimmer's nature and it's a big part of the reason he got years of good play out a guy everyone here -- including the coaches who subtly blamed him for another 8-8 finish -- said was washed up.

That's just one example. But there are tons more every week where a coach has to teach and motivate a player where the threat of getting fired isn't even a consideration. If you were a business owner, you know this. You had to find ways to make your employees as productive as possible and it's not like threatening them with a pink slip was the only tool in your toolbox.

Besides, speaking of getting fired and leverage, Garrett has had the leverage on Jerry the last year. He knows Jerry isn't going to fire him after giving him that contract extension. If ever he wanted to "go rogue" and chew ass, now is the time he could do it knowing damn well Jerry isn't going to can him and eat 25 million or whatever. When Hardy slapped that clipboard out of Bisacchia's hand last year, Garrett could have gone ballistic and what would Jerry do? Maybe defend Hardy after the fact, but the scene Garrett could have made would have earned him huge respect. But instead he stood there like the soft ass bitch he was and is.

 

[SixisBetter]

When Hardy slapped that clipboard out of Bisacchia's hand last year, Garrett could have gone ballistic and what would Jerry do? Maybe defend Hardy after the fact, but the scene Garrett could have made would have earned him huge respect. But instead he stood there like the soft ass bitch he was and is.

This.
I've long wanted a meme inspiring full goose bozo meltdown from Garrett.
Never going to happen.

 

[theoneandonly]

This.
I've long wanted a meme inspiring full goose bozo meltdown from Garrett.
Never going to happen.

Why would it. He gets a fat check for being a fraud. Who would want that to stop? That is the problem with the organization, it prints money 24/7 so they dont care if there is a problem, or multiple problems. Saw a couple months ago Stephen Jones selling his 11 million dollar home. Doesnt sound like he is clipping coupons. Why should any of em give a shit.

 

[yimyammer]

Googled the story but couldn't find it. Booze posted it a few years ago. Maybe I can find it later.

But funny, I worked for years for a family business in construction, too.

In a nutshell: I think you're overestimating the firing factor. Many players in this league know they won't or even can't be fired because of their contract. That doesn't mean their coach can't motivate them. Zimmer brings in Terence Newman and the first thing he tells him is, "What's wrong with you? Your technique is shit. I don't know if you can play anymore." You think Garrett would ever do that? You think Jerry is the one preventing him from doing so? No, it just isn't Garrett's nature. It is Zimmer's nature and it's a big part of the reason he got years of good play out a guy everyone here -- including the coaches who subtly blamed him for another 8-8 finish -- said was washed up.

That's just one example. But there are tons more every week where a coach has to teach and motivate a player where the threat of getting fired isn't even a consideration. If you were a business owner, you know this. You had to find ways to make your employees as productive as possible and it's not like threatening them with a pink slip was the only tool in your toolbox.

Besides, speaking of getting fired and leverage, Garrett has had the leverage on Jerry the last year. He knows Jerry isn't going to fire him after giving him that contract extension. If ever he wanted to "go rogue" and chew ass, now is the time he could do it knowing damn well Jerry isn't going to can him and eat 25 million or whatever. When Hardy slapped that clipboard out of Bisacchia's hand last year, Garrett could have gone ballistic and what would Jerry do? Maybe defend Hardy after the fact, but the scene Garrett could have made would have earned him huge respect. But instead he stood there like the soft ass bitch he was and is.

The only person I talked about getting fired is a coach willing to stand up to jeri and the point of my long winded dialogue wasn't to defend garrett. Anyway, I repeatedly said I think Zimmer would be better than Garrett and pointed out what circumstances in which he would not only be better but also successful here.

In a nutshell, I feel the organization stinks from the head and its killing their chances of success, if jeri hires another coach, then we'll get to see if the results are different. I know where I'm placing my bet.

On another note, the hatred of Garrett presents a dilemma:

If Dak is successful and becomes a franchise QB, it also means Garrett is likely to extend his stay here for several more years.

So if having Dak turn into a franchise QB means Garrett is here 5+ more years, would you rather Dak flop and Garrett get fired or see if Dak can overcome Garrett?

 

[Midswat]

Here's a link to the article as posted on this forum by TE.

2002 SI article on our draft process