NCAA Vacates USC's 2004 National Championship

Midswat · Jun 6, 2011

Discuss amongst yourselves.

sbk92 · Jun 6, 2011

It's a hollow punishment. We all know who won the title that year.

Cythim · Jun 6, 2011

I'm sure if the NCAA investigated every champion in every sport over the last century they would be compelled to vacate a majority of the championships that have been awarded.

Bob Sacamano · Jun 6, 2011

Cythim said:
I'm sure if the NCAA investigated every champion in every sport over the last century they would be compelled to vacate a majority of the championships that have been awarded.

Your point? Just let it slide because of some vague suspicions?

Cythim · Jun 6, 2011

Bob Sacamano said:
Your point? Just let it slide because of some vague suspicions?

No, my point is the system is busted. Amaturism is an archaic ideal that should have died during the cold war. I don't agree with paying players, but I also do not agree with forcing them through three years of amaturism before they are draft eligible. All these kids know how to do is play football, and not letting them earn money to do it is just stupid. The best baseball players can enter the draft and at worst play in the minors right out of high school. The best basketball players only need wait a year before going to the NBA. Soccer has it right, a 16 year old kid can be paid to play if he is good enough.

The NFL needs to upgrade it's old-fashioned player development system. Football is the only sport in America without some form of minor league system and it is also the most corrupt sport in the NCAA.

Midswat · Jun 7, 2011

Cythim said:
but I also do not agree with forcing them through three years of amaturism before they are draft eligible.

That's a rule the NFL has. Perhaps the CFL, UFL, or Arena league doesn't. I'm not sure, to be honest.

That said, I think it's a neccessary rule as it's a rarity that 19 year old kids can match up physically with the players in the NFL. They need those years not only to develop their skills, but to also grow into their bodies.

Cythim said:
All these kids know how to do is play football,

Then "forcing" them to stay in college and become marketable (you know, with a degree) is a good thing.

Cythim said:
The best baseball players can enter the draft and at worst play in the minors right out of high school. The best basketball players only need wait a year before going to the NBA. Soccer has it right, a 16 year old kid can be paid to play if he is good enough.

None of those sports are nearly as physical as the NFL.

Poker players have to wait until their 21 to gamble. All they know how to do is play poker. That rule is garbage. Kids of all ages should be able to gamble. amirite?

sbk92 · Jun 7, 2011

The last thing the NFL needs to do is copy the development system of inferior sports leagues. No league is run better than the NFL.

There's a reason why rookies can make a big impact and the NFL draft is such a big event as a result.

Bonecrusher#31 · Jun 7, 2011

They kicked the cowboy:censored outta my Sooners and there isn't nothing that change that.

Bob Sacamano · Jun 7, 2011

Cythim said:
No, my point is the system is busted. Amaturism is an archaic ideal that should have died during the cold war. I don't agree with paying players, but I also do not agree with forcing them through three years of amaturism before they are draft eligible. All these kids know how to do is play football, and not letting them earn money to do it is just stupid. The best baseball players can enter the draft and at worst play in the minors right out of high school. The best basketball players only need wait a year before going to the NBA. Soccer has it right, a 16 year old kid can be paid to play if he is good enough.

The NFL needs to upgrade it's old-fashioned player development system. Football is the only sport in America without some form of minor league system and it is also the most corrupt sport in the NCAA.

How is encouraging kids to earn a degree in case the NFL thing doesn't work out acting corrupt?

Hell, isn't board, books and education payment enough?

Cythim · Jun 7, 2011

Midswat said:
That's a rule the NFL has. Perhaps the CFL, UFL, or Arena league doesn't. I'm not sure, to be honest.

That said, I think it's a neccessary rule as it's a rarity that 19 year old kids can match up physically with the players in the NFL. They need those years not only to develop their skills, but to also grow into their bodies.

Yes, the NFL dumps all of their player development responsibilities on the NCAA and does not have to pay a dime for it. It is a system that will not change because the NFL gets so much out of it. I would like to see semi-pro teams become a viable path to the NFL but there is not enough money to go that route.

Then "forcing" them to stay in college and become marketable (you know, with a degree) is a good thing.

No it isn't. Most of them don't learn anything and only waste money and education that could be better used on someone else. The majority of the elite athletes never finish their degree and don't care about education. Why throw good money after bad?

None of those sports are nearly as physical as the NFL.

Each sport has it's own physical requirements, some kids might be NFL ready coming out of high school just like LeBron and Kobe were ready for the NBA. Most kids don't fit that mold and need development. The current development system is great for the NFL but shit for the kids.

Poker players have to wait until their 21 to gamble. All they know how to do is play poker. That rule is garbage. Kids of all ages should be able to gamble. amirite?

It would take you to try and make this connection. You are comparing sport to gambling and NFL rules to U.S. law. Come back when you have something tangible.

Cythim · Jun 7, 2011

Bob Sacamano said:
How is encouraging kids to earn a degree in case the NFL thing doesn't work out acting corrupt?

Hell, isn't board, books and education payment enough?

Most of those heading to the NFL do not finish their degree and don't care about learning anything. That money would be better used providing kids who want to learn a chance to earn a degree.

Cythim · Jun 7, 2011

sbk92 said:
The last thing the NFL needs to do is copy the development system of inferior sports leagues. No league is run better than the NFL.

There's a reason why rookies can make a big impact and the NFL draft is such a big event as a result.

You are blind. World football (soccer) is far superior to the NFL. You can put your argument in a vacuum and pretend the NFL is better but you will always be wrong. This is not up for debate. The NFL does not need to change because there will alway be enough talent to fill out the 32 teams in the league, but don't be surprised to see the level of talent drop some as more kids play soccer so they can get paid faster.

Midswat · Jun 8, 2011

Cythim said:
Yes, the NFL dumps all of their player development responsibilities on the NCAA and does not have to pay a dime for it. It is a system that will not change because the NFL gets so much out of it. I would like to see semi-pro teams become a viable path to the NFL but there is not enough money to go that route.

Most professions worth a shit, outside of skilled tradesmen, dump employee development responsibilities on the NCAA.

Would you want your doctors to go to medical school? Or should kids get hired at hospitals just because they show a lot of potential in highschool?

Cythim said:
No it isn't. Most of them don't learn anything and only waste money and education that could be better used on someone else.

You're painting with a broad brush here, and you're making general statements only because they serve your argument.

Most of them don't learn ANYTHING? Really?

Cythim said:
Each sport has it's own physical requirements, some kids might be NFL ready coming out of high school just like LeBron and Kobe were ready for the NBA.

I don't follow the NBA, but even I know that there usually are several high school kids that get drafted every year, and to date, Kobe and LeBron are the only two that have been worth a shat.

And last I checked, in the NBA you don't have 6'5" 250lb players running into each other at full speed repeatedly.

Cythim said:
Most kids don't fit that mold and need development. The current development system is great for the NFL but shit for the kids.

So you acknowledge that most kids need development, but that "forcing" kids to get an education prior to potentially going to the NFL is shit for the kids?

If forcing them to go to college is so bad, why don't these kids go straight to some of the other leagues? Why don't they join the military, or seek another occupation.

The rules only dictate that a player be three years removed from their high school graduation to be eligible to be drafted.

I mean, considering the average NFL career is what, less than 4 years, I really think it's laughable that the idea of these kids being forced to get an education that would only serve to make them more marketable for the remainder of their working careers.

Cythim · Jun 8, 2011

You are trying to change the argument. The kids need development, the question is how to provide it. College football has proven adequate in developing players, but it is thick with corruption because the NFL bound players want to get paid. The best way to get over the corruption in NCAA sports is to separate sports from college and remove amateurism. There are models of player development that work without the NCAA, such as the minor league baseball system and soccer youth academies. The problem for the NFL is the money required to invest in those development systems.

Corruption could be reduced by providing an alternative to the NCAA for high school graduates who want to join the NFL but would prefer getting paid instead of having a free education. How many of the 50+ underclassmen that declare for the draft each year actually return to school to finish their degree? It could also be reduced by eliminating amateurism and allowing them to earn money by participating in spring/summer events.

And your doctor analogy was dumb. Comparing athletes to a profession that requires 8 years of school and 3+ years of residency (AKA OJT employee development) is just as bad as comparing poker to football.

Midswat · Jun 8, 2011

Cythim said:
You are trying to change the argument. The kids need development, the question is how to provide it.
College football has proven adequate in developing players, but it is thick with corruption because the NFL bound players want to get paid. The best way to get over the corruption in NCAA sports is to separate sports from college and remove amateurism. There are models of player development that work without the NCAA, such as the minor league baseball system and soccer youth academies. The problem for the NFL is the money required to invest in those development systems.

Corruption could be reduced by providing an alternative to the NCAA for high school graduates who want to join the NFL but would prefer getting paid instead of having a free education. How many of the 50+ underclassmen that declare for the draft each year actually return to school to finish their degree? It could also be reduced by eliminating amateurism and allowing them to earn money by participating in spring/summer events.

And your doctor analogy was dumb. Comparing athletes to a profession that requires 8 years of school and 3+ years of residency (AKA OJT employee development) is just as bad as comparing poker to football.

How the players are developed is not the responsibility of the NFL. The current system in place works well for them.

Corruption in the NCAA is not an NFL problem. It's an NCAA problem.

Therefore, there is no reason to change the draft requirement that a player be three years removed from high school prior to being draft eligible.

These guys aren't forced into the NCAA. Again, they can enter the UFL, CFL, or Arena League. They can spend three years going to Jason Wittens football camp, for all I care.

My doctor analogy was only as dumb as your notion of revolutionizing incredibly successful leagues and associations currently in place to cater immature greed and ignorance.

My doctor analogy makes sense because in order to be a doctor, you have to have certain skills. You agree that players need to be developed.

Doctors don't get paid to go to college. Why should football players?

Cythim · Jun 8, 2011

Midswat said:
How the players are developed is not the responsibility of the NFL. The current system in place works well for them.

Corruption in the NCAA is not an NFL problem. It's an NCAA problem.

You are repeating what I've already said, the NFL has a sweet deal and has no reason to change.

Therefore, there is no reason to change the draft requirement that a player be three years removed from high school prior to being draft eligible.

Have I once advocated drafting high schoolers? No, my point is that right now the corrupt NCAA is the only viable path to the NFL.

These guys aren't forced into the NCAA. Again, they can enter the UFL, CFL, or Arena League. They can spend three years going to Jason Wittens football camp, for all I care.

If they want to join the NFL they are. The CFL has more stringent rules for draft eligibility and the UFL is targeting players who are coming out of college as well. The NCAA us currently the only viable method of getting into the NFL draft.

My doctor analogy was only as dumb as your notion of revolutionizing incredibly successful leagues and associations currently in place to cater immature greed and ignorance.

Greed is what drives the current system. Greed of NFL owners who don't want to develop talent and greed of college athletic programs who want to milk money from these kids.

My doctor analogy makes sense because in order to be a doctor, you have to have certain skills. You agree that players need to be developed.

Huge difference between degree requirements and player development. Putting wings on a boat won't make it sail.

Doctors don't get paid to go to college. Why should football players?

I never said football players should get paid to go to college. In fact, I said I do not agree with paying college players. I don't agree with forcing them through three years of amateurism as the only path to the NFL.

Midswat · Jun 8, 2011

You're arguing, just to argue.

Gotcha.

Cythim · Jun 8, 2011

I was actually thinking the same thing about you. I see you've run out of bad analogies to throw at me in an ill attempt to steer the discussion off course.

Midswat · Jun 8, 2011

Your stance is that established rules and guidelines be damned... these kids should be able to go pro and make money because they don't care about education and playing is all they're good at.

Does that about sum it up?

Cythim · Jun 8, 2011

Midswat said:
Your stance is that established rules and guidelines be damned... these kids should be able to go pro and make money because they don't care about education and playing is all they're good at.

Does that about sum it up?

Not at all.

Your stance is that I am wrong. Does that about sum it up?

Thank you for smoking.

2

2

2

All-Pro

2

2

2

2

All-Pro

2

2

2

2

2

2

2

2

2

2

2