Rookie Class- maybe some positives

[dbair1967]

I wasn't aware that Carter, Crawford, and Wilber were confirmed "hits" yet.

And Claiborne should be, he literally cost us 3 starters.

Make stupid shit up much?

 

[dbair1967]

1st round pick = 1 starter
2nd round pick = 2 starters
Mike Jenkins sulking and not rehabbing because of Caliborne's selection = 3 starters

I like Claiborne a lot, even though I don't agree with the team's "highest graded CB since Deion Sanders" nonsense. But if you ask me if I would rather have Claiborne OR Mike Jenkins plus 2 new starters, I'd take option B.

First, it isnt 3 starters.

Second, the highest rated CB since Deion junk was not what he meant. He (and several others) clarified what they meant was he had the best BALL SKILLS of any CB since Deion came out. And said he'd be "right up there with the top CB prospects overall"

 

[dbair1967]

Mike Jenkins would most likely not held out, sulked, etc. if we hadn't drafted Claiborne. He would be playing for a contract and would have been starting opposite Carr.

Dude, just stop already. He isnt holding out or sulking. He's fucking injured and might not even be available for week one this year because of it. He had a major shoulder surgery.

With the 14th pick let's say we drafted Michale Brockers (puke) he'd be starting at LDE.

So?

With the 45th pick we could have drafted Peter Konz.

OK, he'd have been a nice add, but niether Brockers nor Konz is anywhere enar the prospect Claiborne is.

Jenkins, Brockers, Konz would be 3 starters on this team right now.

Dude are you drunk or slow? Jenkins isnt able to practice and might not even be ready by week one.

Claiborne is 1 starter on this team right now.

And a higher rated prospect than Jenkins was coming out (by alot) and not in the last year of his contract, meaning we dont have to break the bank to re-sign him or draft/sign someone to replace him next year.

Again I like Claiborne. I just don't like him as much as the Cowboys apparently did.

Of course you dont.

 

[dbair1967]

You actually do lose Jenkins as a starter by replacing him. He is no longer starting.

Let me try to explain it like this. Is upgrading from Mike Jenkins to Morris Claiborne worth 2 other starting players? Without the trade we made we would still have Jenkins most likely penciled in to start plus the players we drafted with our original 1st two draft picks.

Before the draft this was the majority of thinking. We had replaced Newman with Brandon Carr, we had Scandrick as our 3rd CB, and Jenkins was going to either earn a new contract or be allowed to leave in a year. We had holes at safety (all of the Mark Barron talk), interior OL (DeCastro talk), and were in need of upgrading the DL (Fletcher Cox, Michael Brockers). There was talk of drafting a CB later for depth but I don't think too many draft guru's or Cowboy fans were screaming for an immediate upgrade over Jenkins.

Now obviously the Cowboys felt differently. I just don't get how you guys aren't looking at our issues now in Training Camp and not realizing we probably would have been better off keeping and using our first two picks. Also, Jenkins didn't start talking about trades or rehabbing elsewhere until after we drafted Claiborne. IMO there's no reason to believe he wouldn't have shown up to OTA's and rehab on time if he was still the projected starter.

Dude, you are seriously lost or something.

 

[ZeroClub]

I get your math cmd. I was saying the same thing at the time of the draft.

Newman had to be replaced. That was obvious. So the Cowboys picked up Carr (who didn't come cheap ... he required a significant expenditure of resources). Claiborne also came at a very high cost.

Given that the team has significant weaknesses in areas other than CB, the Claiborne pick was a luxury that the 2012 team couldn't really afford. ... short term, it is a bad decision. The 2012 team would have been better off making due with Scandrick, Carr, and Jenkins and allocating elsewhere the resources spent on Claiborne. Specifically, the 2012 team would have been better off with a higher caliber OL.

Rookie CBs usually take a while to develop. My prediction is that Claiborne will be no different. This year he'll show flashes of greatness, but he'll also struggle. I don't expect that he's going to make much of a difference to the 2012 team.

Over the longer term (several seasons from now) it certainly could be that Claiborne will have established himself well worth the resources that were spent on him.

But make no mistake about it .... the 2012 team isn't going to be as good as it could have been. From a short term perspective (at least), the resources spent on Claiborne would have been more effectively used to add true starting caliber players to the OL.

 

[Theebs]

Zero I am not sure why you think we spent a lot of resources to get Claiborne.

Giving up just a 2 to get to the 6th pick is nothing and his salary is peanuts.

Compare claibornes salary to what it would have cost to keep the often injured jenkins and this was very good planning by the front office.

And lineman take a couple of years for the most part to come around also. The only positions that really don't are tight end, rb, pass rushers.

Jenkins had a serious issue with his shoulder popping out of the socket constantly. He needed a serious surgery, I am pretty sure if we didn't take a corner everyone on this board would be killing Jerry and Garrett for not replacing an injured corner who needs a contract.

We just have too many holes to fix in one offseason. Garrett said the other day they have to look at money positions first and with the draft they had a chance to get what they think is a good player in mo at a money position. Guard and center are not money positions.

It will be interesting to see how zeitler, konz and decastro turn out in 3 years compared to mo.

 

[ZeroClub]

It isn't that the Cowboys spent too much to move up in the draft. It is that they allocated too many resources to the CB position (for 2012).

Look, the Cowboys could have had Dre Kirkpatrick and Knoz for what the Cowboys spent on Claiborne.

If you are telling me that the Cowboys have a lot of holes to fill, you understand the advantage of drafting two starting caliber players instead of just one.

 

[bkeavs]

It isn't that the Cowboys spent too much to move up in the draft. It is that they allocated too many resources to the CB position (for 2012).

Look, the Cowboys could have had Dre Kirkpatrick and Knoz for what the Cowboys spent on Claiborne.

If you are telling me that the Cowboys have a lot of holes to fill, you understand the advantage of drafting two starting caliber players instead of just one.

There is little doubt that claiborne will be an outstanding player but i'm with zero. We made our investment this offseason in DB with Carr. We have GLARING deficiencies on the offensive line and our solution was bringing in two backup players to fix the issue.

 

[ZeroClub]

Right, bk, and then there is the Center position. Iamtdg mentioned it in another recent thread. The team has done a very poor job of addressing that position.

Sure, there were three candidates. One has sufficient experience, but not enough ability. The other two had little experience with the position, but apparently were seen as having the potential to be less inept than the previous year's mistake. The team seems committed to throwing spare parts at the position and hoping something good will happen eventually.

The crazy thing about the OL situation this year is that no one seems to have any concerns about Smith's transition to LT. In a normal year, on a good team, fans would be buzzing about the transition ... how long will it take him to adjust? How is he doing against Ware in practice? How is Smith adjusting to and working with his LG? etc. This is a significant transition after all.

Not this year, though. The middle three positions of the OL are in such utter chaos and disarray that it totally overshadows anything related to the OTs.

 

[dbair1967]

I get your math cmd. I was saying the same thing at the time of the draft.

Newman had to be replaced. That was obvious. So the Cowboys picked up Carr (who didn't come cheap ... he required a significant expenditure of resources). Claiborne also came at a very high cost.

Given that the team has significant weaknesses in areas other than CB, the Claiborne pick was a luxury that the 2012 team couldn't really afford. ... short term, it is a bad decision. The 2012 team would have been better off making due with Scandrick, Carr, and Jenkins and allocating elsewhere the resources spent on Claiborne. Specifically, the 2012 team would have been better off with a higher caliber OL.

Rookie CBs usually take a while to develop. My prediction is that Claiborne will be no different. This year he'll show flashes of greatness, but he'll also struggle. I don't expect that he's going to make much of a difference to the 2012 team.

Over the longer term (several seasons from now) it certainly could be that Claiborne will have established himself well worth the resources that were spent on him.

But make no mistake about it .... the 2012 team isn't going to be as good as it could have been. From a short term perspective (at least), the resources spent on Claiborne would have been more effectively used to add true starting caliber players to the OL.

Sorry, totally disagree...they got the player rated 2nd overall on their board (IIRC) and only gave up a 2nd to move up those 8 spots to get him.

It was a total no brainer move for the cost they paid. Now it can be debated to hell down the road if he doesnt work out, but in terms of what they gave up to move into that spot for a player rated where they had him rated was a coup.

 

[dbair1967]

It isn't that the Cowboys spent too much to move up in the draft. It is that they allocated too many resources to the CB position (for 2012).

Look, the Cowboys could have had Dre Kirkpatrick and Knoz for what the Cowboys spent on Claiborne.

If you are telling me that the Cowboys have a lot of holes to fill, you understand the advantage of drafting two starting caliber players instead of just one.

So if Claiborne is a franchise CB, and those other two guys are average starters or JAGS, does the same still hold true?

 

[LAZARUS_LOGAN]

It isn't that the Cowboys spent too much to move up in the draft. It is that they allocated too many resources to the CB position (for 2012).

Look, the Cowboys could have had Dre Kirkpatrick and Knoz for what the Cowboys spent on Claiborne.

If you are telling me that the Cowboys have a lot of holes to fill, you understand the advantage of drafting two starting caliber players instead of just one.

This is a foolish debate to have. I say this, because Jerry had came out and admitted that had we kept our 2nd round pick, he would have selected ILB Bobby Wagner. We weren't getting Konz or any other OL with our 2nd. And would Wagner come in here and be a starter? Not over Lee, so that would leave either over Connor or Carter. Doubtful that he would have displaced either of those two.

 

[ZeroClub]

This is a foolish debate to have. I say this, because Jerry had came out and admitted that had we kept our 2nd round pick, he would have selected ILB Bobby Wagner. We weren't getting Konz or any other OL with our 2nd. And would Wagner come in here and be a starter? Not over Lee, so that would leave either over Connor or Carter. Doubtful that he would have displaced either of those two.

Jerry may be foolish, but the debate isn't.

What we are talking about here is how the resources might have best been used, not whether Jerry would have used them in the best way.

I've heard some people argue that the Cowboys' 2nd round pick doesn't have much value because Jerry has so frequently missed on his 2nd round pick. That line of reasoning isn't persuasive to me. Others may disagree.

 

[bkeavs]

So if Claiborne is a franchise CB, and those other two guys are average starters or JAGS, does the same still hold true?

What if Claiborne turns out to be the superstar he is supposed to be but Romo gets injured again, this time late in the season because of poor offensive line play.

What then? Kyle Orton

Can you imagine how scarry our offense would be with an above average offesive line. I dont know why it is not one of our priorities.

Look at the line we had in the 90's. It was absolutely dominant, and it was integral in the offense we ran

 

[GloryDaysRBack]

Early reports are brokers doesn't look that great. Most rumors on draft day had us taking him..

If we took brockers and he sucks..we might have missed 2 starters there..because we wouldn't have taken Crawford...not saying he's a hit but it sounds like he has a shot.

Too many ifs in this damn thread. Who cares. Move on.

 

[dbair1967]

What if Claiborne turns out to be the superstar he is supposed to be but Romo gets injured again, this time late in the season because of poor offensive line play.

What then? Kyle Orton

Can you imagine how scarry our offense would be with an above average offesive line. I dont know why it is not one of our priorities.

Look at the line we had in the 90's. It was absolutely dominant, and it was integral in the offense we ran

I'd like you to show me some QB's who are injured due to "poor OL play"

The fact is football is a contact sport. No matter how good your OL is, QB's are gonna get hit. Aikman played behind what almost everyone conceded was a "great" OL in the early to mid 90's, yet no QB in football took more big hits than he did.

 

[dbair1967]

Jerry may be foolish, but the debate isn't.

What we are talking about here is how the resources might have best been used, not whether Jerry would have used them in the best way.

.

I think the debate is foolish. The fact is the Cowboys paid peanuts to move up into a premium draft slot to select a guy their scouts rated as the #2 prospect in the draft, and it came at a position sorely needing upgrading. Ultimately the only debate over whether it was worth it will be a few seasons down the road, when we see what type of player Claiborne turns out to be. If he's a probowl calibar CB, the trade up was a coup.

 

[ThoughtExperiment]

I'm on the side that getting Claiborne was the smart move. Of course you have to have scouted him properly, but if he's the player everyone (not just us, this isn't a Quincy Carter/Tony Dixon move) thinks, then we did the right thing. Now if the Rams had demanded the "proper" compensation... Then maybe not. But for just a second, it's a no-brainer.

On the O-line, I'd argue that maybe instead of the shotgun approach in free agency, we should have spent that money on one proven players like a Myers. Or that instead of a Wilbur, we should have got a guard. Usually you can get good interior linemen in the second and third rounds.

But, at this point we don't know that the guys we got aren't Kosier-type cheap but good players.

 

[LAZARUS_LOGAN]

There is little doubt that claiborne will be an outstanding player but i'm with zero. We made our investment this offseason in DB with Carr. We have GLARING deficiencies on the offensive line and our solution was bringing in two backup players to fix the issue.

Are you stuck on stupid? Livings was not a backup. And seriously, how much do you think you can fix an entire Oline in just ONE offseason?

 

[bkeavs]

Are you stuck on stupid? Livings was not a backup. And seriously, how much do you think you can fix an entire Oline in just ONE offseason?

No reason for name calling. Sorry about the formality. 2 cast offs from other teams.

San Francisco did a decent job with their Oline in one year right?

I just dont know why you are so happy with the decisions they made for the offensive line. It's literally laughable