dbair1967

Administrator
The question I don't see answered is why is the ATF agent even there. How did he know a guy had a "shotgun he isnt permitted to have" in the first place?

If the ATF guy refused to show his credentials in the first place, the citizen had every right to call the cops (and its the right thing to do with all the crazy bullshit going on)

Pretty sure federal agents always show their badges, if this guy didnt do it then he deserved what he got.
 

Dodger12

Super Moderator
The question I don't see answered is why is the ATF agent even there. How did he know a guy had a "shotgun he isnt permitted to have" in the first place?

If the ATF guy refused to show his credentials in the first place, the citizen had every right to call the cops (and its the right thing to do with all the crazy bullshit going on)

Pretty sure federal agents always show their badges, if this guy didnt do it then he deserved what he got.

You're making an assumption that the guy didn't show his creds and I'm willing to bet he did. But there are certainly issues here. I have no idea why AFT would send agents out by themselves to check on these firearms purchases. My guess is that they have quite a few to validate and don't have the manpower to do it. But I still wouldn't send guys out alone.

But it still doesn't excuse the conduct of the uniform officers. This is not all that uncommon and it actually looks like the ATF agent has some basic tactical gear that identified him as LE. The ATF agent was pretty surprised and shocked at the response by offers in the beginning of the video and I would have been shocked too. You take his ID, you validate his ID with his driver's license, you ask who is supervisor is, you make a call to the local ATF office. It's really not that hard and that's pretty standard operating procedure.

I'll even go a step further and say that uniformed officers shouldn't act this way with armed citizens (non-law enforcement). In any event, the citizens of Columbus will have to pay for the stupidity of these officers.
 

dbair1967

Administrator
You're making an assumption that the guy didn't show his creds and I'm willing to bet he did.
I just went off what the cop said, he said the person that called 911 claimed the ATF agent was impersonating an officer and did not show any badge/credentials. I think at first he was even refusing to show it to the cop too despite the cop asking for it.

Like I said, if that's true then the ATF guy acted stupidly and deserved what he got.

And I'd still like to know how/why the ATF guy got there to begin with.
 

dbair1967

Administrator
I would assume if Biden and the dumbass liberals have their way, having ATF and other law enforcement out there doing their bidding by harassing law abiding citizens over gun ownership is going to become the norm.
 

Dodger12

Super Moderator
I just went off what the cop said, he said the person that called 911 claimed the ATF agent was impersonating an officer and did not show any badge/credentials. I think at first he was even refusing to show it to the cop too despite the cop asking for it.

The cop never asked for it upon arriving. He just escalated to level 10 the moment he got there. The agent states "I'm a federal agent" with both hands raised the moment the cop arrives on scene. The next step is to ask for ID. But the uniform wanted to make this an issue.

This wasn't a difficult scenario and could have gotten way out of hand had there been multiple ATF or federal agents on the scene. The uniformed officer could have been charged with obstruction of justice, as federal law supersedes state law. There's a point in the video where the ATF agent is on the ground, is not a threat with at least two guns pointed at him and tells the uniformed officer his ID is in his left pocket. A normal officer would have pulled his ID, asked him a series of questions to determine the truth and taken it from there. Instead they want to cuff and tase a federal agent who is acting within the scope of his authority. This was very unprofessional and not a good look all the way around.

For me, it's very telling that a uniformed officer who handles himself in this fashion would, no doubt, escalate an encounter with a private citizen. And that's a greater issue to me.
 
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Dodger12

Super Moderator
I just went off what the cop said, he said the person that called 911 claimed the ATF agent was impersonating an officer and did not show any badge/credentials. I think at first he was even refusing to show it to the cop too despite the cop asking for it.

From the lawsuit that was filed:

"The occupant told the 911 operator Agent Burk’s name, that he was with ATF, and that he showed her his badge. The occupant also read the operator Agent Burk’s badge number."

Easily verifiable from the 911 call.

So the cops had a scenario even before arriving at the scene.

 

Creeper

In the Rotation
That's a disgraceful display by both parties. But mostly the uniformed officers. Only one of the comments got it right...basically, if an ATF agent in the performance of his duty is tazed and cuffed, what chance do average citizens have?

In any event, I'm not pimping the agent but rather the situation. This agent is now suing the PD and he'll be a millionaire. And this does nothing to improve the image of the Columbus police department who have been accused of aggressive tactics and police misconduct.

The cops were in a tough position I think. They were called when someone reported a man impersonating an officer. The ATF guy should have had his ID out as soon as the cops arrived. He also should have done what the cop asked him to do. They have no idea if he has a weapon or not. Do as they say. Get in a safe non-threatening position. The minute you defy them they are going to suspect you have bad intentions. This is only natural.

On the other hand, Once he was on the ground they kept saying he was resisting. I did not see that from the video. He might have been resisting getting cuffed but did that warrant a tazing?

I have not doubt cops can be heavy handed sometimes. But they don't know who or what they are dealing with. They see a lot of jerks in their line of work.
 

Dodger12

Super Moderator
The cops were in a tough position I think. They were called when someone reported a man impersonating an officer. The ATF guy should have had his ID out as soon as the cops arrived. He also should have done what the cop asked him to do. They have no idea if he has a weapon or not. Do as they say. Get in a safe non-threatening position. The minute you defy them they are going to suspect you have bad intentions. This is only natural.

The 911 center was told by the caller the agents name, badge number and agency. If someone was impersonating a police officer, he most probably would have fled when the police arrived and there also wouldn't have been that level of detail. In any event, the agent's hands were up when the police arrived and he identified himself. This really wasn't a hard one and the responding officer had almost 20 years on the job and he should have known better. The incident was escalated by the uniformed officers and I wouldn't want them to handle a legally armed citizen like that when they come in contact with one.

This situation is not uncommon and it rarely, if ever, ends like this. The police had information (more than in most cases that end without incident), they arrive and assess the situation and then they help the ATF agent perform his duty. Even when they had him on the ground and he told told the uniformed officers where his ID was, all they had to do was retrieve it and check it. Instead they decided to tase and cuff the agent and just escalate and make the situation worse. The taxpayers will ultimately pay for that level of arrogance.

Lastly, the average citizen won't mind the video because the government has now become the enemy and they think it's some kind of payback. I'm no fan of these enhanced gun laws and I don't blame people for not opening up the door to police nowadays. But this situation was not handled properly by any stretch and will only be used by real criminals to sue the police for alleged misconduct.
 

Creeper

In the Rotation
Apparently Christopher Wray wets his pants when he sees someone post "Lock and load" on social media. I am sad for him.
 

Creeper

In the Rotation


The problem is we are living in unprecedented times when legal liability has been redefined and no one is safe. We are seeing lawsuits against gun manufacturers pushed through the courts by judges not interested in the law or common sense. Parents of the kids killed at Sandy Hook elementary school sued the manufacturer, Remington, of the gun Adam Lanza stole from his mother claiming the maker of the gun is somehow responsible for Lanza killing their children. Again, Lanza stole the gun from his mother then killed her with it before he went to the school and shot the kids. Remington settled the case for $73 million. Then they declared bankruptcy. This is an absurd case of legal scapegoating.

I sense all the major gun manufacturers are worried they may be next.
 

Creeper

In the Rotation
After doing more research on the lawsuit the parents of Sandy Hook victims settled with Remington for $73 million, I am even more concerned about the future of the 2nd amendment. While the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act protects gun manufacturers from liability lawsuits when their guns are used in crimes, states, like Connecticut have passed laws targeting how gun manufacturers market their products and this is how the parents were able to sue Remington the maker of the Bushmaster XM15-E2S Adam Lanza used to killed 20 children inside the Sandy Hook school. The parents claimed that Remington markets a weapon used by the military and targeted teenage boys. As evidence they claimed Remington allowed their guns to be used in violent video games, like Call of Duty.

This is an absurd argument. There is no evidence that Remington allowed their gun to be depicted in any video games for the purpose of getting teenage boys to buy them. Further, there is no evidence that doing so makes boys commit mass murders. And what of the video game makers? They share no liability if these claims against Remington are true?

No evidence was presented that Lanza ever saw any of Remington's marketing materials. But more importantly, Lanza did not purchase the gun himself. It was his mother's gun, as was the Glock and Sig he carried with him into the school. The guns were taken from his mother whom he killed with a .22 caliber rifle in their home. There was literally 0 evidence linking Remington's marketing to Lanza's decision to use his mother's gun to shoot up an elementary school.

This case never should have gone to trial. In fact, the lower courts in Connecticut threw the case out and only an appeal to the state Supreme Court allowed the case to go forward. Remington filed an appeal to the US Supreme Court which refused to hear their appeal.

Throughout the case, the Sandy Hook parents argued that the Bushmaster XM15 never should have been sold to the public. Their legal team made this point repeatedly during the case but continued to claim it was really about the misrepresentations in their marketing materials.

Remington settled for $73 million because that is the maximum amount their insurance companies will pay. Even though Remington has declared bankruptcy the insurance companies are still on the hook for the payment.

Why did Remington settle? That is a good question. The parents claim that in discovery they found many emails that somehow show Remington's culpability in mash shootings. We'll have to see what they mean when the materials are released. Some speculate that Remington settled because they would have been required to open up their company to even more discovery which could have proved embarrassing for them.

But the damage is done. The lawyers for the parents left the courtroom claiming this case had set the precedent and blueprint for how to bring down every gun manufacturer. As we speak there are dozens of other lawsuit in the courts claiming the gun makers are responsible for almost every kind of murder committed with one of their weapons. Even Mexico is suing Smith and Wesson claiming they are responsible for the violence in Mexico!

You can see where all this is going and we are watching it happening. The stakes in the 2022 mid-terms could not be higher.
 
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