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April, 27, 2011

By Todd ArcherIRVING, Texas -- Since Bill Parcells decided he had enough of the 4-3 scheme and wanted to bring a 3-4 to the Cowboys in 2005, the prevailing thought about defensive ends has been that they are two-down slugs meant to hold up blockers so others, especially the outside linebackers, can make plays.

To some that means there is not much value in selecting a 3-4 defensive end with the ninth overall pick. But it’s not entirely true either.

“They’re not always two-down players,” Cowboys Executive Vice President Stephen Jones said. “There are those guys that rush the passer too. There’ve been good ones playing in the 3-4. Wade [Phillips] used to remind us of the Bruce Smiths of the world played on the defensive line in a 3-4 … I think it’s a misperception that all of your 3-4 linemen are just first and second down players. That’s not correct. We do think there’s value there.”

Sack numbers can be sticky for 3-4 defensive ends, but in breaking down the pure ends the Cowboys have had in that time Greg Ellis is the only one with more than four sacks in a season. He had eight in 2005 before he moved to outside linebacker in the scheme.

Kenyon Coleman had four in 2006. So did Jay Ratliff before he was moved full-time to nose tackle. (I did not count Ratliff’s sack numbers since 2007 when he has started on the nose.) In the last three seasons Cowboys’ defensive ends have produced 16 sacks.

I understand this is not a perfect measuring stick because the ends move to tackle when the Cowboys use their nickel defense. But 3-4 ends can get to the quarterback more than we have been led to believe.

Oakland’s Richard Seymour has been the gold standard at the spot. Green Bay’s Cullen Jenkins had seven sacks in 11 games last year. Arizona’s Calais Campbell led the team with six sacks. In the last two years Shaun Ellis has put up 11 sacks with the New York Jets. San Francisco’s Justin Smith had 8.5 sacks in 2010.

In two seasons at Wisconsin, J.J. Watt had 11.5 sacks. Cameron Jordan had 16 sacks in his career at Cal, playing the same position he will play in the NFL. (And I will also mention the Cowboys really liked Jordan’s Cal teammate, Tyson Alualu last year.)

So when you wonder why the Cowboys would look at Watt or Jordan with a high pick in the first round, dump the preconception that they will be two-down players.

“If we’re going to pick someone that high we want him on the field for all three downs,” Jones said.
 

Bob Sacamano

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Yeah, reason we haven't been good at getting to the QB from the DE position is that we just haven't had very good DEs at pushing the pocket or splitting gaps.

Not, as dbair constantly mentions, because the 3-4 scheme dictates that.
 

sbk92

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You're not going to get a lot of sacks from 3-4 ends. The scheme most definitely limits you.

And the way Parcells and Rob Ryan play the scheme, you really aren't going to get a lot from the ends.

But that is besides the point. Since when does a dominant defensive lineman have to be a big sack guy? How about just controlling the line of scrimmage and keeping your linebackers free to make plays?
 

dbair1967

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True that double digit sacks guys are rare. But 1 sack from your starting DE is pathetic.

When Igor Olshansky plays most of the downs, the result isnt surprising.

And the stat of "only 1 sack from a DE" isnt entirely accurate either. Alot of Ware's sacks came while he was playing a RDE or LDE spot in the nickel/dime defense, where we had 4 guys lined up up front. While Ware isnt a DE, some of those sacks came when he was playing a DE spot.
 

MichaelWinicki

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True that double digit sacks guys are rare. But 1 sack from your starting DE is pathetic.

The Steeler defensive ends had twice as many sacks as the Cowboy DE's. It wouldn't be a stretch to think that their QB pressures dwarfed those by the Cowboys.

The Cowboy defense gets mauled on first and second down pass rush, because you have the two defensive ends who add nothing.

If one of the defensive ends could add at least some pressure, you would see the sack numbers go up for everyone.
 

sbk92

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None of Ware's sacks came playing as a 3-4 end. Which is what we're talking about.
 

dbair1967

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The Steeler defensive ends had twice as many sacks as the Cowboy DE's. It wouldn't be a stretch to think that their QB pressures dwarfed those by the Cowboys.

The Cowboy defense gets mauled on first and second down pass rush, because you have the two defensive ends who add nothing.

If one of the defensive ends could add at least some pressure, you would see the sack numbers go up for everyone.

The Steelers DE's are better than ours, which explains some of it. They are also vastly better coached than what our guys were.

I suspect Ryan will get more out of our guys than Wade did last yr.
 

dbair1967

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lol you're point?

Garrett took a team playing really awful football, without his starting QB and without one of their best offensive players for half those 8 games to 4 more wins than Wade did.

I think the point is one guy could coach and got results, the other guy is now a defensive coordinator elsewhere.

So coaching matters, and it matters quite a bit.
 

Bob Sacamano

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Garrett took a team playing really awful football, without his starting QB and without one of their best offensive players for half those 8 games to 4 more wins than Wade did.

I think the point is one guy could coach and got results, the other guy is now a defensive coordinator elsewhere.

So coaching matters, and it matters quite a bit.

Then why couldn't Rob coach the Brown's D to better than 24th last year?
 

LAZARUS_LOGAN

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The way I see it, if a 3-4 DE was so important for us, why didn't we simply bother to keep Canty?
 

dbair1967

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Then why couldn't Rob coach the Brown's D to better than 24th last year?

Go back and look at some of their games. Look at how they held most teams in check in terms of points. Look at the creative game plans that helped contain Brady and Brees.

They may have been 24th in yards, but when you consider they had an awful offense (therefore their defense was on the field the majority of most games) and not much but table scraps to work with in terms of talent on defense, he did a pretty amazing job.
 

MichaelWinicki

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The Steelers DE's are better than ours, which explains some of it. They are also vastly better coached than what our guys were.

I suspect Ryan will get more out of our guys than Wade did last yr.

Regardless of where the improvement comes from, it needs to happen. When all of your starting defensive ends are contributing 3.5 sacks total, then you're putting a big burden on your other pass rushers, not too mention the guys in coverage...

And when you have massive problems at safety– No wonder the team was a sieve against the pass.
 
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Then why couldn't Rob coach the Brown's D to better than 24th last year?

The yards ranking is one of the most flawed defensive rankings in all of football.

They need to comprise a ranking that takes into consideration opponnent third down conversions, turnovers, points, etc.

Mike Zimmer had the #1 ranked defense one time in Dallas (or maybe more than once). We all can attest that this team never had the leagues best defense under his watch.
 

Bob Sacamano

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The yards ranking is one of the most flawed defensive rankings in all of football.

They need to comprise a ranking that takes into consideration opponnent third down conversions, turnovers, points, etc.

Mike Zimmer had the #1 ranked defense one time in Dallas (or maybe more than once). We all can attest that this team never had the leagues best defense under his watch.

They weren't much better in points allowed either.

Fact is, coaching changes aren't the cure all.
 
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