Bipartisan push to repeal medical device tax gains traction in Senate

[JBond]

I have asked a couple of the libs on the forum how new taxes on medical companies will reduce health-care costs and they have been incapable of forming a coherent answer. It will be interesting to watch and see if the Dems still are insistent on driving up costs. Of course 20 retarded people still voted for the tax. Which party wants to increase medical costs? Hmm...

The Senate gave sweeping bipartisan approval Thursday to a proposal by Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, and Amy Klobuchar, D-Minn., to put senators on record in favor of repealing a tax on medical devices – a key part of President Obama’s controversial health care law.

The Hatch-Klobuchar amendment to the GOP budget plan is the latest effort to roll back the tax that applies to a range of medical products, from surgical tools to heart devices. It’s among several taxes in Obama’s 2010 health care overhaul.

The amendment passed the Senate by a vote of 79 to 20. The bill that it was attached to did not pass, but the sponsors used it as an opportunity to rally support for repealing the tax -- as well as a separate bill they've introduced to achieve that.

“Today, bipartisan members of the Senate spoke loudly and clearly that this tax on medical devices simply must go. It is a drain on innovation, on job creation and on our ability to provide ground breaking medical technologies to patients,” Hatch said in a statement.

The Affordable Care Act levies a 2.3 percent tax on medical devices with the goal of raising nearly $30 billion over the next decade.

Manufacturers say the impact of the tax is far greater than meets the eye -- the 2.3 percent tax is on gross sales, meaning it's a much greater percentage of net income.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...tax-gaining-traction-in-senate/#ixzz2OHDzHwTn

 

[Hoofbite]

If anyone has been incapable of answering your question it's because your question is dumb.

You're focusing on 1 aspect out of hundreds, if not thousands, of aspects. Some might actually increase costs if isolated from all the other aspects and looked at on it's own. Fuck, the paperwork necessary to get everyone health insurance will likely increase costs.

The idea is that ultimately you reduce total expenditures because you've got a significant number of aspects that cut costs and in total overpower any increase in cost that there might be.

People without insurance generally don't seek medical help until they absolutely have to and use the ER as their primary service. Aside from the fact that they increase healthcare costs on their own because they don't pay and everyone else covers the costs in some manner, treating them at this stage is vastly more expensive than it would be to treat them a long as time ago and prevent the ER visit in the first place.

Here's a couple examples.

How many blood clots can be avoided by getting people with clotting issues (old, obese, unhealthy) on warfarin? Warfarin costs about $4 per month. Care to guess what it costs to treat a pulmonary embolism? Some estimates put it at about $30,000 to treat a single occurrence. And pulmonary embolisms are just one of many possible outcomes for people with clots. Heart attacks and strokes can occur as a result of clots.

Cardiovascular disease continues to be a leading cause of death. Simvastatin is about $6 per month and statins in general are proven to reduce CV events like stroke and heart attacks.

In order to understand something that has to do with the costs of healthcare, you should probably have at least a rudimentary understanding of healthcare in general. Treating people before they show up at the ER door with 1 foot in the grave absolutely will reduce costs in the long run. Instead of a person waiting until they are in dire need of healthcare, they could see one of those small doc-in-the-box type offices and get treated for something that is readily treatable.

 

[JBond]

So you are among the many that are incapable of answering how new taxes on medical equipment providers will reduce costs. Just shut the fuck up if you can not comprehend the question. Don't waste my time with your drivel.

Remember when the POS said a family of 4 would save $2500 a year?

The piece of trash occupying the white house said he would reduce costs. He and his minions will say anything to obscure the truth.

The damn government is the one that wants to limit screenings for cancer, but really they care...

I know I already pay for all the fucking deadbeats. Adding massive taxes and government handouts on top of that is not going to help.

Hoof = spunk-lite unless you can explain how new taxes will reduce costs, or to use your verbiage total expenditures, for those of us that actually pay our bills. I'll wait...probably for a real fucking long time....

 

[superpunk]

If you don't already know how socializing certain things drives costs down for everyone you're too stupid to explain it to. Hoof did an excellent job, and instead of listening and responding to his points you went with "STFU".

You're a fucking joke.

 

[Hoofbite]

So you are among the many that are incapable of answering how new taxes on medical equipment providers will reduce costs. Just shut the fuck up if you can not comprehend the question. Don't waste my time with your drivel.

Remember when the POS said a family of 4 would save $2500 a year?

The piece of trash occupying the white house said he would reduce costs. He and his minions will say anything to obscure the truth.

The damn government is the one that wants to limit screenings for cancer, but really they care...

I know I already pay for all the fucking deadbeats. Adding massive taxes and government handouts on top of that is not going to help.

Hoof = spunk-lite unless you can explain how new taxes will reduce costs, or to use your verbiage total expenditures, for those of us that actually pay our bills. I'll wait...probably for a real fucking long time....

Did you even read a thing I posted?

I flat out said that taxes may increase costs by themselves. Just as filing paperwork will increase costs. Or printing the plastic insurance cards will increase costs.

Some things will raise costs. So long as there are more things that reduce costs, those raises are overpowered.

It's really not that hard of a concept. Like everything else in there are there multiple variables moving in multiple directions. So long as the net effect is in the direction you want, it doesn't matter what any individual aspect does on it's own.

Honestly, if you can't look beyond a single aspect isolated from hundreds, if not thousands, you're wasting your's and everyone else's time because you lack any ability at all to be rational.

 

[JBond]

What is going to reduce the costs? Any idea why premiums are scheduled to go up 200%?

I guess the new trend of herding patients like cattle to group visits will help a little if you do not mind giving up all patient confidentiality.

Where is the $2500 savings for the family of four Obama was rambling about?

 

[Hoofbite]

What is going to reduce the costs? Any idea why premiums are scheduled to go up 200%?

I just told you what will reduce costs. ER visits. Why are premiums going up? That's an easy answer. The same answer can be found in why the US spends more per capita on health care yet outcomes don't match. People are fucking money hungry. It's the same reason why costs have been increasing steadily in this "perfect" system that you are advocating so much for. Answer that. Why have costs been increasing even in the current system?

I guess the new trend of herding patients like cattle to group visits will help a little if you do not mind giving up all patient confidentiality.

Not even sure what this means. Why not mention the inconvenience of having to sit in the waiting room with other people while you're at it?

Where is the $2500 savings for the family of four Obama was rambling about?

If there are savings to be had they won't be realized in the short term. I don't know where you got the idea that every single family will save $2500 dollars. I doubt you could find a quote that would say every single family will save that much.

You have like 15% of the population who doesn't have access to healthcare. All of sudden these people who haven't had healthcare or who haven't seen a provider in years will start utilizing these services. The costs may increase in the short term. It should be expected, how the fuck else would it work? If you care to answer a question, how would you expect costs to decrease with an additional 40 million people (many of whom are in shitty condition from diet and whatnot) suddenly seeking healthcare.

Ultimately, that would be a problem if costs wouldn't be expected to be reduced in the long run. Some people think on time scales that exceed the next month. Try it sometime, it's kind of handy to look down the road a bit.

You cannot deny that readily treatable chronic conditions that lead to ER usage and deaths can reduce costs if they are treated earlier. This is a fact. People with access to healthcare do not wait until they are in dying need of it before seeking it. Even treating acute illness can prevent costs. Every incident of ER usage or every day in the ICU that is prevented saves thousands of dollars. Treating community acquire pneumonia or a urinary tract infection before it progresses to sepsis (septic shock is 10th leading cause of death and accounts for 50% of the people admitted to the ICU. Also accounts for 10% of all deaths in the US which is about the same as heart attacks. Pneumonia and urinary tract infections comprise an estimated 30% of sepsis, and that's at the lower end of both estimates. Higher ends would put it upwards of 90%) will reduce ICU usage, ER usage and ultimately will save lives.

1 day in the ICU costs about $3,000 and the average stay in the ICU is multiple days. 1 study I read put the average duration of stay at 10.7 days; that's $30,000. Now compare that to the cost of a prescription that clears the patient of infection. Treating a urinary tract infection (oh, by the way these are common with old people which means as life expectancy increases so do the number of urinary tract infections) can be like $15 for a prescription.

I have zero doubt that healthcare costs will go down if people with chronic conditions are treated before they have some severe event or if people currently without healthcare access are given medication that prevents serious complications. Until I see data that says otherwise, I have no choice but to believe that simple medications can reduce costs. Statins reduce CV events, warfarin reduces clotting events and antibiotics can reduce the number of people who are admitted for sepsis (of course widespread use of antibiotics may result in resistant drugs but this country already has a problem with that and we have other medications that cover these drugs).

It's up to you to decide why the reduction of ER and ICU utilization wouldn't result in a reduced cost that is passed onto the individual. Pretty sure we both know the answer.

 

[JBond]

Perfect system I am advocating for? The asswipes that run the show will not allow free market principles to prevail. That is why cost are skyrocketing. Obama lied in order to ram through a new unfunded entitlement. He was simply buying more votes in yet another redistribution scheme. That is the only thing democrats can do. Buy votes with other peoples money. Ideas that actually work are ignored. This was another power grab that will drive up costs, not lower them as he claimed. When will we see the $2500 reduction in costs for a family of four while maintaining the level of care they had pre Obama care?

You know that Obama has recommended less preventive care right? So your bull shit about preventive medicine needs to stop right now. No one believes that line of crap anymore. Certainly Obama does not believe that or he would not have cut cancer screenings.

Why are you confused about the loss of patient confidentiality and the group meetings? That is Obama's plan. You should not be confused. You may not care about patient confidentiality, but many people do.

When will we see all the savings and reduction in medical costs? Do you understand how much Obama is going to have to take from the producers to give away to the non producers in order to fund this nightmare? The government has done so well with the other redistribution scams, we should have complete confidence this one will work, right? Social Security and Medicare are thriving, right?

If you can not tell me when I will see all the savings the lying sack of shit promised then just stop posting in the thread. BS answers do not fly with me.

 

[junk]

So, JBond what is your answer to healthcare?

 

[VTA]

So, JBond what is your answer to healthcare?

Since when is healthcare a question? When did it become failure that a nation had 75% + success in the area of people able to afford coverage? The 'stats' should have been laughed off from the start.

Because some politicians said there was an issue, playing on the time proven tactic of suggestion? Does it strike anyone as odd that this nation had the best healthcare system in the world and even it couldn't compensate for everybody?

Assholes on both sides of the alphabet political system are lying through their teeth, making dopes out of both camps, pitting them through false altruism and enflamed patriotism.

So every Tom, Dick and Douche bag thinks he has an answer. Following the obviously failing systems of socialist systems is above and beyond blind. Attempting to re-wire a system by driving up costs on all levels of healthcare, forcing provders and employers to short shift their clients/employees.

How many people have been transferred from the U.S. to Canada for treatment and vice versa? How many people leave the U.S. seeking treatment in Europe, barring cost saving garbage like cosmetic surgery?

Should we go the commie model? How may people from the Western world have transferred to China for Medical treatment? I wonder how well the plan in N. Korea works. Cuba?

The answer was simple: leave it alone. It fits in a broader context than what it seems and it's all about gaining further control. But as it happens people can't help but get their assholes bunged up for a good argument and decide to choose a side. The Chief Narcissist puts his 'brand name' on it and everyone applauds their own future destruction.

Remember the language: Clinton assured everyone that homes were a right that is deserved. Less than 20 years later the housing market took a dump and so will the healthcare industry.

 

[superpunk]

this nation had the best healthcare system in the world

The answer was simple: leave it alone.

 

[VTA]

Good one. *High five*

 

[junk]

Since when is healthcare a question? When did it become failure that a nation had 75% + success in the area of people able to afford coverage? The 'stats' should have been laughed off from the start.

Because some politicians said there was an issue, playing on the time proven tactic of suggestion? Does it strike anyone as odd that this nation had the best healthcare system in the world and even it couldn't compensate for everybody?

Assholes on both sides of the alphabet political system are lying through their teeth, making dopes out of both camps, pitting them through false altruism and enflamed patriotism.

So every Tom, Dick and Douche bag thinks he has an answer. Following the obviously failing systems of socialist systems is above and beyond blind. Attempting to re-wire a system by driving up costs on all levels of healthcare, forcing provders and employers to short shift their clients/employees.

How many people have been transferred from the U.S. to Canada for treatment and vice versa? How many people leave the U.S. seeking treatment in Europe, barring cost saving garbage like cosmetic surgery?

Should we go the commie model? How may people from the Western world have transferred to China for Medical treatment? I wonder how well the plan in N. Korea works. Cuba?

The answer was simple: leave it alone. It fits in a broader context than what it seems and it's all about gaining further control. But as it happens people can't help but get their assholes bunged up for a good argument and decide to choose a side. The Chief Narcissist puts his 'brand name' on it and everyone applauds their own future destruction.

Remember the language: Clinton assured everyone that homes were a right that is deserved. Less than 20 years later the housing market took a dump and so will the healthcare industry.

That is a lot of blathering that still doesn't answer the question other than to say "Leave it alone". From when?

I think healthcare in this country is broken and was before Obama.b

If people are going to rant and rave about it, offer some suggestions. I'm legitimately curious

 

[superpunk]

you don't get any dap for that retardation, sorry

 

[VTA]

That is a lot of blathering that still doesn't answer the question other than to say "Leave it alone". From when?

I think healthcare in this country is broken and was before Obama.b

If people are going to rant and rave about it, offer some suggestions. I'm legitimately curious

Because there is no question. It was suggested the system was 'broke' and simply taken at face value by people who wanted to believe it. And no one in their right mind is obligated to offer suggestions to false premises. It's better to identify it as such and avoid the subsequent futile hair pulling. Arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

[VTA]

you don't get any dap for that retardation, sorry

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2013/03/26/Carson-Responds-To-Tou-3rd-Grader-With-Nothing-Useful-To-Say

 

[junk]

Because there is no question. It was suggested the system was 'broke' and simply taken at face value by people who wanted to believe it. And no one in their right mind is obligated to offer suggestions to false premises. It's better to identify it as such and avoid the subsequent futile hair pulling. Arguing for the sake of arguing.

So apparently you don't see any issues. I do. I think healthcare is an issue needing resolution. So, my question stands.

 

[VTA]

Well then what are the issues?

 

[superpunk]

getting sick can destroy your entire financial life?

WORKING AS INTENDED NOTHING TO SEE HERE

 

[VTA]

How about you step aside and allow the grown-ups to talk.