Trayvon Martin shooting: Zimmerman says Trayvon decked him, then began hammering him

[peplaw06]

I disagree with this, and I'll explain why (although I probably have in this thread already... somewhere).

To me, this all hinges on who started the physical confrontation.

If Trayvon did - which is my belief - then I think George is innocent of 2nd degree murder.

If George started the physical confrontation, then I think he should hang.

I'm not talking about following him. I'm not talking about ignoring a 911 dispatchers recommendation (because 911 dispatchers do not and are not allowed to give out orders). I'm not talking about if GZ had the right or authority to question TM.

To me, it all hinges on who started the PHYSICAL confrontation.

This is where we fundamentally disagree. I start the line much earlier. I've tried putting myself in both persons shoes, George's and Trayvon's.

If I'm George, there's a lot of things I would have done differently. But let's ignore that for a second. If I'm George, I call the police when I see someone in my neighborhood who raises my suspicion. I give them the information in a calm manner, which is what George did. When I notice he's running, I would tell the police that. I would try to keep visual contact with him, so I can tell the police when they get to the neighborhood.

Then I also think that if I'm George that I would have tried every way possible to stop Trayvon from beating me. If I absolutely could not get him off of me, and he wouldn't stop beating me, I would shoot.

I think he did all that stuff right, provided he felt like he tried every way possible to get Trayvon off of him before he resorted to the gun.

If I'm Trayvon, I think about how I would feel if I was 17 and walking in a neighborhood at night, and a strange adult begins following me. I would run. I would try to get away from the person following me. If I'm unable to get away, then my adrenaline would be up. If I confront the person following me, and the person makes a reach for something on his person, by God I'm fighting. I'm fighting until one of us is disabled, and if it's the other guy, then I get away.

There are a lot of things Trayvon did that I would like to think I would have done differently.

But when I look at which person is more at fault for the confrontation, there's no doubt in my mind it's George. Start off with their ages. George was an adult, Trayvon was not. You can talk about their sizes all day, but I'm talking about maturity level. And another thing... Sizes be damned... 99% of the time adults have a physical advantage over teenagers. The adult is just naturally going to be stronger.

George had been "trained" in the neighborhood watch stuff. Trayvon was in high school. George was also from that neighborhood. He was familiar with the area.

George had a gun. Not illegal, but the fact that he had a gun probably made him more apt to put himself and Trayvon in harms way. When you're truly defenseless, you are less likely to make decisions that would require you to defend yourself.

I think the fact that Zimmerman said he reached into his pocket... no matter what he's reaching for... provides Trayvon all the information he needs to use WHATEVER means he needed to defend himself. If that means beating George to death, then that's what it means. Reaching to your pocket, I don't know what you're about to pull out of there, it could be a gun/knife, some other weapon. It's a reasonable thought to me to believe he's reaching for a gun. If Trayvon were a police officer, he would riddle George with bullets.

THAT'S where the confrontation started. It wasn't who made the first physical contact. In my opinion.

Now, today the prosecutions witness - the one that made the 911 call from the upstairs bedroom - was testifying that she didn't really see anything, she heard yelling but wasn't from who, she was familiar with Zimmerman but didn't know him directly, and after seeing the photos of the beating he took, she said she couldn't recognize him it was so bad. She also said that in the few times she was around him in neighborhood organized meetings, he came accross very mild-mannered and quiet. Yes, this was a witness the prosecutors presented to strengthen their case somehow.

I heard the 911 clip of the yells for help today. I think it was Zimmerman's voice. The gunshots came soon after the cry for help. That says to me the person who shot was screaming. We know that was Zimmerman. But I don't think that matters. We were way past the point where Zimmerman could claim self-defense at that point. In my opinion.

At this point... the prosecutors introduce the fact that GZ has a restraining order filed against him from a former girlfriend. Obviously this was to indicate that GZ had a violent past.

If the prosecutors is allowed to introduce that... if that is somehow relevent to this case... then the fact that Trayvon assaulted a bus driver, had video of fight club style fights on his cell phone and his youtube channel, had pictures of marijuana and guns on his phone, was suspended from school for having drug paraphanalia and tools commonly used for breaking and entering... all of that is absolutely relevant.

It serves to illustrated Martin himself had a violent past and had an affinity for fighting.

It's not a relevancy objection. All of this is relevant. The question is whether it's impermissible character evidence. I don't think the restraining order of Zimmerman will be admitted. i don't think the past of Trayvon will be admitted.

I just can't wrap my head around the fact that Zimmerman, who was trying to coordinate efforts to meet up with the police up until just a minute or two before the incident happened, would start to assault Martin when the cops were moments away.

Especially with the testimony that Precious gave today that Zimmerman was tired and out of breath when Martin asked him why he was following him.

Doesn't pass the smell test. A tired, out of breath Zimmerman, who knows the cops will be there any second, is going to attack a guy who's 5" taller than him.

I mean... I just don't see that happening.

I don't think Zimmerman was the first one to physically touch Trayvon. I think Trayvon started that. But I think he was justified in defending himself. I think Zimmerman put Trayvon in reasonable fear, and therefore, I think Zim was the instigator. And as such, I don't think he should be allowed to claim self-defense.

 

[JBond]

I just remembered where I heard that. Zimmerman said he reached for his cell phone in his pocket after Martin asked him what his problem was. Zimmerman stated that in his interview with Sean Hannity.

Hannity just played the clip again.

And watching Hannity's show tonight to get some info, I see exactly where MetalHead, JBond, etc. are getting their zeal against Trayvon and for George. Hannity is a shill for George. He sounds exactly like MetalHead. There's NO CASE here, blah blah.

I always find it funny when people act like they KNOW what's gonna happen in a trial. People who have practiced law for decades longer than me would admit they don't know, if they're honest. No one knows.

I have nothing against either one and and rarely watch Fox. I never saw the interview. You are usually much more even handed. I think all the lies the media intentionally pushed has affected your judgement.

 

[peplaw06]

The only media I watch is local news and occasionally Fox News. Fox is all slanted for George. They have to have both sides like always, but when they have 3 people, 2 are for George. All the hosts are for George.

 

[JBond]

This is where we fundamentally disagree.

I think the fact that Zimmerman said he reached into his pocket... no matter what he's reaching for... provides Trayvon all the information he needs to use WHATEVER means he needed to defend himself. If that means beating George to death, then that's what it means. Reaching to your pocket, I don't know what you're about to pull out of there, it could be a gun/knife, some other weapon. It's a reasonable thought to me to believe he's reaching for a gun. If Trayvon were a police officer, he would riddle George with bullets.

THAT'S where the confrontation started. It wasn't who made the first physical contact. In my opinion.

I heard the 911 clip of the yells for help today. I think it was Zimmerman's voice. The gunshots came soon after the cry for help. That says to me the person who shot was screaming. We know that was Zimmerman. But I don't think that matters. We were way past the point where Zimmerman could claim self-defense at that point. In my opinion.

It's not a relevancy objection. All of this is relevant. The question is whether it's impermissible character evidence. I don't think the restraining order of Zimmerman will be admitted. i don't think the past of Trayvon will be admitted.

I don't think Zimmerman was the first one to physically touch Trayvon. I think Trayvon started that. But I think he was justified in defending himself. I think Zimmerman put Trayvon in reasonable fear, and therefore, I think he was the instigator. And as such, I don't think he should be allowed to claim self-defense.

WTF? So people should be beat to death for reaching into their pocket but GZ should not defend himself? Strange post.

 

[iceberg]

Flush

there's that eloquance we've been missing.

like i said, your mind is made up and anything you hear, you'll twist to support your view. if evidence comes up zimmerman was guilty, i'd listen with some form of an open mind.

wish you could do the same.

 

[peplaw06]

WTF? So people should be beat to death for reaching into their pocket but GZ should not defend himself? Strange post.

Reaching into a pocket for something that is concealed is a clear threat. And I didn't say Zimmerman shouldn't defend himself. I said I would have defended myself to. But since I think he instigated the altercation, he doesn't get to claim self-defense.

When a police officer has a suspect at gun point, what does he tell the suspect? Put your hands up? And what does the officer do if the suspect doesn't do that, and yet reaches into his pocket? Suspect gets dead. Why do you think that is?

 

[peplaw06]

there's that eloquance we've been missing.

like i said, your mind is made up and anything you hear, you'll twist to support your view. if evidence comes up zimmerman was guilty, i'd listen with some form of an open mind.

wish you could do the same.

So what do you think about Zimmerman saying he reached into his pocket?

 

[iceberg]

So what do you think about Zimmerman saying he reached into his pocket?

based on what i've heard, and all we can go by is zimmerman, martin said he was going to die tonight and was going for the gun also.

if you don't believe zimmerman, then what i think about it really doesn't matter.

 

[peplaw06]

based on what i've heard, and all we can go by is zimmerman, martin said he was going to die tonight and was going for the gun also.

That's not what Zimmerman said. In the portion of the Hannity interview I saw tonight, ACCORDING TO ZIMMERMAN, Martin said "why the [expletive] are you following me?" then Zimmerman reached for his pocket to get his cell phone and Martin then punched him in the nose and the assault began.

if you don't believe zimmerman, then what i think about it really doesn't matter.

yep, just as I suspected.

 

[JBond]

Reaching into a pocket for something that is concealed is a clear threat. And I didn't say Zimmerman shouldn't defend himself. I said I would have defended myself to. But since I think he instigated the altercation, he doesn't get to claim self-defense.

When a police officer has a suspect at gun point, what does he tell the suspect? Put your hands up? And what does the officer do if the suspect doesn't do that, and yet reaches into his pocket? Suspect gets dead. Why do you think that is?

Maybe Trayvon was reaching into the pocket on his sweatshirt, maybe his jeans pocket? Is that the correct time to shoot him in self defense?

 

[iceberg]

That's not what Zimmerman said. In the portion of the Hannity interview I saw tonight, ACCORDING TO ZIMMERMAN, Martin said "why the [expletive] are you following me?" then Zimmerman reached for his pocket to get his cell phone and Martin then punched him in the nose and the assault began.

yep, just as I suspected.

so a man reached into his pocket and martin attacked.

who hit who first?

as for as what i think, it doesn't matter. you already believe what you want to believe and there isn't a single thing i can say that will back that thought truck up a notch or two. you already think zimmerman is a liar but this "fact" somehow becomes true.

i think this trial is public opinion, not based on actual events. i think it's pop culture. i think 3 black kids can set a white kid on fire and no one gives a flying fuck.

but somehow this "trial" defines racism.

i think we as a culture are so caught up in instant gratification we can't take the time to look at everything. it's beyond us. the extremes shout it out loud and make it "real" for no other reason than for some reason "pop culture" is extreme in this time of our lives.

we're allowed to look at the history of one man but we refuse to look at the history of the other.

fuck color, that is bullshit. if you don't understand the mindsets of the people in question, you're clueless on why they did what they did.

i think zimmerman may have gone over the board a bit. but martin didn't have to attack. i think if this were 2 white or black people, we'd be mad at something else. i think the media is throwing gas on the fire. how many times a day does something like this happen? i'd wager far too many.

yet we only give a fuck about this.

cause the media said we should.

so in an effort of instant gratification we dismiss the rest and spend our time as if this will define the course of mankind for decades to come.

it just may. but not how people think.

so no, what i think i'm already sure doesn't matter to you. when you're willing to listen and not judge, i'll talk a bit more. but for now, i want to hear more about the case.

not make what i hear equal how i feel.

 

[Midswat]

Pep... uh, lets just say I don't agree.

My experience has been primarily in bird law, but I don't think you're allowed to beat someone to death because they reached into their pocket.

No, the cop holding a suspect at gunpoint analogy does not compare.

 

[Midswat]

Another thing to consider:

Zimmerman has said he was walking back to his truck when Martin came up behind him.

Zimmerman says Martin asked "Why the fuck you following me?"

DeeDee says Martin says "Why you following me for?"

There's conflicting reports of what George said in response, even from the same witnes depending on when she was asked (but thats besides the point).


Think about this for a moment...

The first person to say anything is Martin.



If Zimmerman was in fact still chasing Zimmerman at this point he would've been the first person to say something. "Hey, stop." "What are you doing around here." "Who are you?" Etc.


But Martin asked first.... "Why are you following me for."


I know this won't change anyones opinion/stance because the lines are drawn and people are more interested in 'winning' than conceding at this point.


It was "What are you following me for" followed by "I'm not" or "What are you doing around here" followed by a thump and the phone disconnects.

They were in a physical altercation immediately.


Can you honestly say that DOESN'T support Zimmermans story?

These guys are extremely close to each other at this point.

If Zimmerman knew he was that close to him and he was the pursuer, why wasn't he saying "Stop!" or anking any questions?

It doesn't make any sense

Neither of thse two were running at this point. That is acknowledged.

And these guys were super close to each other.

So was Zimmerman going to wait until he was literally inches away from this guys face before he asked questions?




Also... pep... the bone you pick with George is that he reached into his pocket to grab his cell phone, but TM didn't know what he was grabbing.

When did GZ reach into his pocket? A few seconds after TM asked "Why are you following me for?"





Okay, what is more likely:

George is following Martin still. Martin is trying to get away. George isn't saying anything though. He's just following silently (walking, mind you) until they're face to face. Martin says "Why are you following me for?" George says 'What are you doing around here?" George reaches for his cell. Martin strikes him. Fight for life ensues.

Or

George is walking back to his truck. Martin approaches George and askes "What are you following me for?" George says "What are you doing here?" George reaches for his cell because he's suddenly face to face with the 'suspect.' He plans to call 911 and let them know where he is. Gets punched, battle ensues.


The first thing George did after answering Martins question was reach for his cell. The first thing he wanted to do when he located Martin, was reach for his cell and most likely call 911 and let them know where he was.

Right?


George had been on the phone with 911 the whole time giving a play by play. Am I supposed to believe that George was following Martin, walking, just a few feet away, yet wait until Martin asks him something before calling the cops?


It.

Doesn't.

Make.

Sense.


Here is what I think happened, in case it's not clear: Zimmerman was walking back to wait for the coppers. Martin approached him and asked the question. Zim responds. Zim suddenly face to face with the kid, unexpectedly, reaches for his cell to call 911. Fight ensues.

Martin went from the hunted, to the hunter.

Now everyone not named peplaw tell me I'm racis and Martin was just an infant without making any attempt to intelligently refute this scenario.

 

[2233boys]

there's that eloquance we've been missing.

like i said, your mind is made up and anything you hear, you'll twist to support your view. if evidence comes up zimmerman was guilty, i'd listen with some form of an open mind.

wish you could do the same.

My mind is made up? How about yours? I have an opinion on the case sure everyone does. Including you, but since my opinion isn't the same as yours my mind is closed but yours is open. Gotta love that logic.

Many of your posts aren't worth much more than a one word response. Look at your history here. I'm not the poster that trolls threads with FU and posts that make no sense because I can't handle my alcohol.

 

[Midswat]

http://youtu.be/rlXaAJg7A-8

 

[peplaw06]

Maybe Trayvon was reaching into the pocket on his sweatshirt, maybe his jeans pocket? Is that the correct time to shoot him in self defense?

Hey, I guess we can make up all the facts we want to try to defend old Zim. But Zim has not said that's what happened.

 

[peplaw06]

so a man reached into his pocket and martin attacked.

who hit who first?

as for as what i think, it doesn't matter. you already believe what you want to believe and there isn't a single thing i can say that will back that thought truck up a notch or two. you already think zimmerman is a liar but this "fact" somehow becomes true.

I think Zim is a liar because his story doesn't add up. I don't think EVERYTHING he's said has been a lie. I think he lies when he feels like it's convenient for him and his defense theory.

i think this trial is public opinion, not based on actual events. i think it's pop culture. i think 3 black kids can set a white kid on fire and no one gives a flying fuck.

but somehow this "trial" defines racism.

i think we as a culture are so caught up in instant gratification we can't take the time to look at everything. it's beyond us. the extremes shout it out loud and make it "real" for no other reason than for some reason "pop culture" is extreme in this time of our lives.

we're allowed to look at the history of one man but we refuse to look at the history of the other.

fuck color, that is bullshit. if you don't understand the mindsets of the people in question, you're clueless on why they did what they did.

Dude. I just posted a fucking dissertation about the mindsets of the people in question. I've also said repeatedly that I don't believe ZImmerman's story, but that I'm watching as much as I can and I don't know what's gonna happen. How is that instant gratification? GTFO here with that bullshit. You're parroting your favorite line, and it doesn't fit.

i think zimmerman may have gone over the board a bit. but martin didn't have to attack. i think if this were 2 white or black people, we'd be mad at something else. i think the media is throwing gas on the fire. how many times a day does something like this happen? i'd wager far too many.

yet we only give a fuck about this.

cause the media said we should.

so in an effort of instant gratification we dismiss the rest and spend our time as if this will define the course of mankind for decades to come.

it just may. but not how people think.

Hey, you don't have to care if you don't want to. but if you didn't, then why are you in this thread? Is it somehow my fault that this is publicized? Is it Trayvon's fault that it's publicized? No? Then what the fuck does that matter?

you can decry the media in this if you want, but the media don't change the facts.

so no, what i think i'm already sure doesn't matter to you. when you're willing to listen and not judge, i'll talk a bit more. but for now, i want to hear more about the case.

not make what i hear equal how i feel.

I'd have a lot more respect for you if you would at least admit that this fact makes a difference. I brought this all up when the Hannity interview originally aired. I brought it up later in this thread, and you got all indignant, saying you "NEVER HEARD OF ZIM REACHING TO HIS POCKET!!" I told you I had heard it, I had forgotten where. Now you have the admission straight from Zimmerman's mouth, and instead of taking it into account, you're dismissing it, and hoping the rest of the facts in the trial allow you to keep your already formed opinion.

And you have the gall to say I've already prejudged...

 

[peplaw06]

Pep... uh, lets just say I don't agree.

My experience has been primarily in bird law, but I don't think you're allowed to beat someone to death because they reached into their pocket.

No, the cop holding a suspect at gunpoint analogy does not compare.

Why not?

 

[Midswat]

John Good, who appearantly was the best eye witness, coming on the stand.

 

[Midswat]

Why not?

Do you really not know why a cop ordering a suspect to put his hands in the air and then discharging his firearm if the suspect doesn't comply doesn't compare to one man being allowed to beat another man to death because he followed him and reached in a pocket?

REALLY?