superpunk

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By Fareed Zakaria
I have long argued that cutting government spending in the midst of a weak recovery is not a path toward growth. But I have also argued that America does have a debt and deficit problem and we need to take it very seriously.

The fact is the vast majority of our debt problems relate to the costs of health care in America. Now that the debate over Obamacare is over, we should start thinking seriously about how to get America's health care costs under control. As it turns out, two new works – a book and a magazine cover story – provide some very useful ways to think about this.

The central debate between Democrats and Republicans is over whether the free market works well in health care. In a new book, Catastrophic Care, David Goldhill makes the case for the market, arguing that people need to become consumers of health care so that they, not insurance companies, not the government, actually see, feel and pay the bills. That will force producers of health care – doctors and hospitals – to push down prices and drive up quality. That's what happens with groceries or television sets or computers.

In fact, Goldhill argues LASIK surgery, which is not covered by health insurance, has seen a 90 percent drop in price and a huge increase in quality since it was introduced in the early 1990s. That's what happens when consumers pay for a product.

Steven Brill makes the opposite case in a recent cover story in Time magazine. He painstakingly went through the actual bills that hospitals put out and found that they charge massively for routine procedures and medicines. He found, for example, a routine blood test, prophyrin (ph) 1, was billed to patients at a hospital at the rate of $199.50. Medicare pays for that same test, $13.94.

Brill agrees that America's health care industry's not a real market, but for different reasons than many on the right. He says that there is so much collusion, so many monopolies and so much disinformation that it cannot function as one.

"Most important," he says, "Is that the consumer, when buying health care, simply does not have the power to act as he or she does in other markets. When a doctor tells you that you need a CT scan, you are unlikely to say 'No, thanks' or to start haggling over the price."

I think you should read both Brill's essay and Goldhill's book. There are actually some points of agreement about how to reform what everyone accepts is a badly functioning, almost crooked, marketplace for health care. (Goldhill, by the way, wants universal health care and thinks the government has a big role to play, so this is not an argument for the poor to fend for themselves).

My own views on this difficult issue are open. I want to read more and understand better what seems to be working in cutting costs and improving quality across the country and the world. But I do think that Steven Brill points to a very real problem in health care as a market and that these are inherent in the nature of health care. The consumer does not have the knowledge or the power to act as he or she does in other markets.

Perhaps that's why in every other rich country in the world, we have found that markets don't function properly in health care – and that includes very free market nations like Singapore and Switzerland, both of which score higher than the United States on the Heritage Foundation's Index for Economic Freedom.

And yet all of them provide universal health care at no cost at much, much lower costs than we do with in many cases much better health care outcomes than we have.
 

JBond

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:confused

But the bamster already fixed it. Costs are plummeting and those that feel like it get everything for free. Utopia!

By the way, can you translate this garbage?

And yet all of them provide universal health care at no cost at much, much lower costs than we do with in many cases much better health care outcomes than we have.[/U][/B]

It is a true shame the democrats lead by Obama doubled down on the problems getting deeper in bed with the insurance companies instead of focusing on meaningful reform. This is what happens when uniformed morons vote for a worthless Acorn idiot from Chicago.
 

superpunk

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We haven't gotten to a single payer system yet, which is what will really drive costs down (see article). The obstructionist republicans made sure we only got partial change, and they sat down with their health care lobbyists to write the bill so it's not perfect. But, it's a decent first step, one we should all be proud of. Hopefully soon we completely socialize it.
 

JBond

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The republicans had nothing to do with the bill. Obama told them to get in the back and shut up because he was king after winning the election. The dems "deemed" it to have passed without a final vote. Obama and his whore donors wrote the bill.

Obama created this nightmare and the stupid bitch and his semi conscious worshipers need to own up to the fact they doubled down on stupid. Your master created this. This is all you little spunk.

Guess you fucking tards should have read the bill before passing it. Fucking idiots.
 

ThaBigP

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We haven't gotten to a single payer system yet, which is what will really drive costs down (see article). The obstructionist republicans made sure we only got partial change, and they sat down with their health care lobbyists to write the bill so it's not perfect. But, it's a decent first step, one we should all be proud of. Hopefully soon we completely socialize it.

Single payer (an oxymoron, since it's really a two-class system) keeps a lid on healthcare costs by rationing. Rationing takes two forms: delayed care and denied care. In its worst extreme, it's euthanasia when a patient would have been otherwise treatable. And it also results in a positive feedback loop, as reduced pay and loger work hours and harder work conditions remove much incentive to join the medial profession, resulting in shortages of medical professionals, compounding the problem. Wash, rinse, repeat. And as for a "captive" consumer negating market forces, well ... not so much. Look at other "captive" markets and what happens when they're socialized. Food? Starvation (except for the powerful and elites of the gov't and their cronies, of course. Their bellies always manage to stay full).. Energy? Blackouts/brownouts (except for the powerful and elites of the gov't and their cronies, of course. Their lights always stay on). Zimbabwe, USSR/Ukraine. Venezuela. On and on and on.

The problem with healthcare cost *is* socialization, whether public (Medicare/Medicade) or "private" (private healthcare insurance). Insurance used to be for catastrophic losses, such as a tornado, major car accident, house fire, or catastrophic illness. But due to people wanting MOAR! without paying for it, at least not directly and out-of-pocket, health "insurance" now covers all manner of routine procedures, many mandated by law, and people have come to expect, no, DEMAND! it. Imagine the cost of a tire change if that was covered by your car insurance? Or an oil change? Or having the lawn mowed on your home owner's insurance? But Johnny gets the sniffles, and it's off to the emergency room expecting a small copay. And I'm sure if gov't had a "MediCAR" program, they could mandate that their bill be subsidized by offloading their costs to the bill going to the schmuck on private insurance. Who cares, right? "Somebody else" is paying. Until they can't. In the meantime, there's much more important stuff to save for, like the new iCrap coming out every six months.
 

superpunk

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Literally none of what you just said is true in actual practice. Take that bogeyman bs somewhere people will believe it.
 

superpunk

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Right there is no malpractice in the states our system works so much better.

Your argument against something similar to the NHS seems to hinge solely on 2 ridiculous talking points. First - that a public welfare system might be abused or misused. That can be dismissed outright, because that is a possibility with any welfare program. That is in no way a legitimate argument against having them, however. Second, your argument hinges on scare-tactic outliers, which while alarming, are no different than what we already see in the States. The difference? British people are not worried about being financially ruined by health problems.

Public Satisfaction surveys of the British over the years have been overwhelmingly approving of the NHS - until very recently when there were huge cuts made to the system during the recession - which....fucking duh. (and even then the NHS maintained a 58% approval rating) You can't strip it of it's funding and expect it to maintain the same level of approval. So despite your bogeymen, for some reason British people still enjoy having their public healthcare system. Crazy, huh? Why aren't they pining for exorbitant insurance premiums like we have?
 

ThaBigP

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Right there is no malpractice in the states our system works so much better.

Your argument against something similar to the NHS seems to hinge solely on 2 ridiculous talking points. First - that a public welfare system might be abused or misused. That can be dismissed outright, because that is a possibility with any welfare program. That is in no way a legitimate argument against having them, however. Second, your argument hinges on scare-tactic outliers, which while alarming, are no different than what we already see in the States. The difference? British people are not worried about being financially ruined by health problems.

Public Satisfaction surveys of the British over the years have been overwhelmingly approving of the NHS - until very recently when there were huge cuts made to the system during the recession - which....fucking duh. (and even then the NHS maintained a 58% approval rating) You can't strip it of it's funding and expect it to maintain the same level of approval. So despite your bogeymen, for some reason British people still enjoy having their public healthcare system. Crazy, huh? Why aren't they pining for exorbitant insurance premiums like we have?

Hospital staffs ordered to euthanize patients as a cost-saving measure is not malpractice. SeeWhatYouDidThere? If I point out the Holocaust, a proper rebut is not to say "well, we have crime here too!".
 

Hoofbite

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I don't think a single payer system is the way to go but I also don't care for a system where people are without healthcare, many of whom are children.

Neither system is without it's flaws. You can find reports of shitty hospital conditions in America all the same.

Nursing homes are a prime example.

http://www.lifehealthpro.com/2013/02/28/watchdog-medicare-paid-51b-for-poor-nursing-home-c

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/30/us/30nursing.html?_r=0

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...-lead-in-overcharging-while-care-suffers.html

Source: https://oig.hhs.gov/oei/reports/oei-02-09-00200.pdf

I've read a couple other articles about companies that basically buy nursing homes, cut the staffs down to bare bones and operate at a huge profit (while residents are neglected and end up with bedsores and all sorts of other shit) and then sell the home to another company.

I think it was in Washington state where they had people who realized they could go through the minimal paperwork and pay like $100 to get a license to operate as a nursing facility and then they would take a large house and basically convert it into a community home for 4, 6, or 8 people. They'd have 1 single nurse on call overnight and that was about it. Nobody on-site at some of these places.

The healthcare issue is far too complicated for any specific answer. Single-payer isn't going to solve the problem and neither is a system where people recieve shittier treatment from caregivers who are trying to increase profits.
 

ThaBigP

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LOL

ok serious discussion isn't your thing. I get it.

"euthanize". lmfao.

Crap - you're right. I shouldn't have used the word "euthanize". Merriam-Webster defines eutthanazia as:

Definition of EUTHANASIA: the act or practice of killing or permitting the death of hopelessly sick or injured individuals (as persons or domestic animals) in a relatively painless way for reasons of mercy

A smattering of quotes from the articles I listed proves your point - I misspoke ... er, typed.

Patients lying starving, soiled and in pain.
He warned that in the worst institutions, a “normalisation of cruelty” had been fostered.

Here's a bloke who made the same error I did
Top doctor's chilling claim: The NHS kills off 130,000 elderly patients every yearProfessor says doctors use 'death pathway' to euthenasia of the elderly

-Around 29 per cent of patients that die in hospital are on controversial 'care pathway'
-Pensioner admitted to hospital given treatment by doctor on weekend shift.


NHS doctors are prematurely ending the lives of thousands of elderly hospital patients because they are difficult to manage or to free up beds, a senior consultant claimed yesterday.

Professor Patrick Pullicino said doctors had turned the use of a controversial ‘death pathway’ into the equivalent of euthanasia of the elderly.

He claimed there was often a lack of clear evidence for initiating the Liverpool Care Pathway, a method of looking after terminally ill patients that is used in hospitals across the country.

It is designed to come into force when doctors believe it is impossible for a patient to recover and death is imminent.
...

Professor Pullicino claimed that far too often elderly patients who could live longer are placed on the LCP and it had now become an ‘assisted death pathway rather than a care pathway’.

He cited ‘pressure on beds and difficulty with nursing confused or difficult-to-manage elderly patients’ as factors.

Professor Pullicino revealed he had personally intervened to take a patient off the LCP who went on to be successfully treated.
He said this showed that claims they had hours or days left are ‘palpably false’.

Hospitals bribed to put patients on pathway to death: Cash incentive for NHS trusts that meet targets on Liverpool Care PathwaySome hospitals set target of two thirds of all deaths should be on LCP

At least £30m in extra money handed to hospitals to achieve these goals
Critics warn financial incentives could influence the work of doctors

So there you have it, death as a cost-cutting measure to free up beds and overworked employees. Bribes, in fact, to put people to death. However, the word "euthanazia" is probably inappropriate as you pointed out, since the word means to kill painlessly and with mercy as the motive. In these cases, they tend to simply starve them to death, leaving them to stew in their feces.
 
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Curious what's the answer then? In an article I read in 2007 11 million children were uninsured and another 14.1 million were under insured. Everyone likes to complain about what they don't like but what is the solution?

That's a lot of children not being immunized, not receiving well checks, not being properly cared for and they did nothing but be born to poor parents.
 

ThaBigP

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How many of those children are in single-parent homes? How many are children of illegal immigrants? In other words, societal actions have societal consquences, regardless of the squawking of some to the contrary. The surest path to poverty is single parenthood. And being an illegal immigrant is not much better (although they voted with their feet that this is better than where they came from, but that's another issue).

So now we're left having to come up with "solutions" to problems we knew would come along with the decay of the family and rule-of-law (regarding immigration). "Solutions" such as killing the unborn or signing everyone onto a socialized healthcare system that, while often just fine for life's minor bumps and bruises, is practically a death sentence for anyone who gets seriously ill.

If I were to go into hopey/changy land and put together a plan, it would be health savings accounts. Strip insurance coverage to what insurance is meant to cover: catastrophic loss. Further, strip the employer-dependency of insurance (ex: you get a tax break for buying an employer's heathcare policy, but not if you buy independently). Allow cross-state-line insurance shopping. For life's bumps and bruises, people should be allowed to contribute tax-free to a savings account. We sorta-kinda have that today, but you lose whatever you put in there every year (it doesn't roll over). Which does two things: encourages people to undercontribute, and/or raid the account spending what's left at year-end, neither of which are good economic incentives. Allow them to roll-over or cash out at year-end. Perhaps allow even the cash-out to be tax-free to encourage contribution and thrift. Personally I'd also do away with the 16th Amendment, and replace it with a national retail sales tax, so you are taxed for spending money, not earning it. But now I'm getting on a tangent...

I don't know that this idea (been kicking around out there as a proposal in various forms for some time) is very likely in modern America. This plan doesn't give anybody "free stuff". And unfortunately that's what too many have come to expect. Any "plan" that has people saving their own earnings, under any guise, is "no plan at all".

How do we get around that? Well, as much as I've been bashing the UK NHS top-to-bottom clusterF healthcare-except-for-those-that-REALLY-need-it system, let's look at France instead. France also has a quasi-socialist system but with a twist. Their system provides basic care only. Broken bones are mended, and checkups are performed (at a modest rate, but still...). The people then purchase private insurance to cover the big stuff. This still is no great potatoes as France is about to go through their own "Greece/Cyprus" crash owing to spending MOAR than they take in like oh, so many other "developed" nations around the world. When that happens, their own basic care service will crater as well.
 
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I really don't care why they are poor we need a plan to ensure they are taken care of.
 

superpunk

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take care of the poor and fatherless boys and widows....unless they are illegals or single parents

-Jesus
 

VTA

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I really don't care why they are poor we need a plan to ensure they are taken care of.

That's good, but what is the plan and how much is invested on a personal level? If consideration for less fortunate is a concern, what measures do you support?
 

VTA

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take care of the poor and fatherless boys and widows....unless they are illegals or single parents

-Jesus

Jesus' idea of charity wasn't head nodding for government action, it was personal involvement.
 
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