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Jones said “we’ll leave that open” regarding the possibility of moving right tackle La’el Collins to guard. New offensive line signings Cameron Fleming and Marcus Martin have guard experience, too.

I stated this in another post. It does not make sense to pay Zach Martin a big contract to be a Right OG. He would have to move to T. Because most OT can easily convert to OG, OG's are easy to find. When the Cowboys signed Collins, I knew he could in immediately and play OG in the NFL because he had been a LT in the SEC. The move to RT was not the best for Collins long term. Martin is a better technician and he could move to RT and get paid like a T. The Cowboys can not blow up a messed up salary cap at the OG position. It is a position to easy to fill by draft or FA (see Leary, Cooper, Davis, etc.).

What would really be wild is the Cowboys play Fleming at RT, move Collins to OG (he has 2/3 more contract years) and move Martin via trade. You can not pay your entire OL top 10 pay. But our dumbo GM is incapable of coming up with that type of trade that would be worth losing Martin.

Chemistry is important to an OL. I would rather see Collins move to RG and be the swing to T if any OT gets hurt. Martin move to RT, and Fleming replace Cooper at LG. That way you can lock in Martin long term keeping 4 of your 5 starting OL from last year.

Finally, the lost of Johnathan Cooper was big because Cooper was an OG that can play C and was a highly rated C out of college. If we lose Fredricks at C we will be a messed up as losing Tyron at LT. The Cowboys have to address this via the draft, I like Daniels out of Iowa or FA.
 

dbair1967

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Sorry, disagree with most of the above.

Jonathan Cooper was a JAG. He's no better a player than the JAG we just signed to replace him (Marcus Martin) only Martin cost a fraction of what the Niners paid Cooper.

Martin has been a G since day one in the NFL and spent most of the week at the Senior Bowl that yr playing G. It's for a reason. Trading him also makes no sense whatsoever UNLESS they were to draft a stud G this year, then you franchise Martin next yr and potentially get a boat load for him from someone.
 
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Sorry, disagree with most of the above.

Jonathan Cooper was a JAG. He's no better a player than the JAG we just signed to replace him (Marcus Martin) only Martin cost a fraction of what the Niners paid Cooper.

Martin has been a G since day one in the NFL and spent most of the week at the Senior Bowl that yr playing G. It's for a reason. Trading him also makes no sense whatsoever UNLESS they were to draft a stud G this year, then you franchise Martin next yr and potentially get a boat load for him from someone.

You do not pay OG unless they are John Hannah. Regarding Cooper, do you remember how worthless the OL was without a C after Andre Gurode left. The OL did not get right until the Cowboys drafted Fredericks who was also a two way player at OG and C.

I'll trade a OG that can not play in other position on the OL in a heart beat before paying him like a OT. From what you are saying about Zach Martin, he is only a OG.

Nate Newton OT in college to OT then OG in Pros.
Andre Gurode OG/C in college to OG then C in Pros.
Larry Allen OT in college to OG, OT, OG in Pros.
Tom Rafferty OG in college to OG then C in Pros.
Kevin Gogan OT in college to OT then OG in Pros.
Tyron Smith RT in college to LT in pros.
Laiel Collins RT/LT in college to OG then RT in Pros.
Pat Donovan DE in college to RT then LT in Pros.
Mark Tuieni DT in college to LT in Pros.
Herb Scott OT in college to OG in Pros.
John Fitzgerald DT/OT in college to DT to C in Pros.

Basically you do not draft or sign pure OG. If Zach Martin can not play OT and OG, paying Zach Martin to be a pure RG top OL money is GM insanity. So Jerry will probably do it.


Case in point John Niland was a 6x pro bowl OG for the Cowboys who contract was coming up. The Cowboys (Tex, Tom, and Gil) drafted Herb Scott OT/OG (dirty dozen) and traded Niland for a draft pick that became Tony Hill, WR Standford.
 

icup

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Im not crazy about moving anyone on the line


I agree fredrick is the most important part ofthat line but martin is the best player

The line just needs to add depth and it will be fine. Getting Fleming is a big deal moreso i think for tyrons back issues than to start at RT to replace collins. And Collins was fine at RT but the oline was a godamn trainwreck w tyron out. That is on dallas not being prepared to play without him. They put in green who had been moved from T to G then back to T. Position flex doesnt always work out

I think Zack martin is a luxury that dallas needs right now. Why cant you guys just let fred/martin/collins develop some continuity together and fuckin destroy defenses ???
 

theoneandonly

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but martin is the best player
Its not close IMO. I think week in and week out Martin is the best player on the team. I dont consider him a luxury and getting rid of him would be idiotic. I still think if Tyron went down for 8-10 games (could easily happen) that Martin could slide to LT and play effectively.
 

dbair1967

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Basically you do not draft or sign pure OG. If Zach Martin can not play OT and OG, paying Zach Martin to be a pure RG top OL money is GM insanity. So Jerry will probably do it.

So you think a team that drafts Quenton Nelson next month somewhere in the top-10 is making a mistake then right? If Nelson somehow fell in our laps at 19, you run the card up there and laugh at your luck. Dude is probably the best player regardless of position in this draft.

As for Martin, COULD he play one of the T spots in a pinch? Sure, he played it well at a major university. Is it his IDEAL position? Hell no.
 
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So you think a team that drafts Quenton Nelson next month somewhere in the top-10 is making a mistake then right? If Nelson somehow fell in our laps at 19, you run the card up there and laugh at your luck. Dude is probably the best player regardless of position in this draft.

As for Martin, COULD he play one of the T spots in a pinch? Sure, he played it well at a major university. Is it his IDEAL position? Hell no.

If Nelson is pure OG, then it is a mistake to draft a pure OG in the top 10. I do not know any other way to state the obvious. However, Nelson plays LG and has the athletic ability so he maybe Mike Munchak/Alan Faneca type special.

the last pure OG selected in the top 10 was Chris Naeole in 1997. The only one with real success was Mike Munchak in the 80's.

So you can say what you want, NFL history, NFL draft history, and common football sense says you do not pay premium draft picks or money for a RG.
 
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Im not crazy about moving anyone on the line


I agree fredrick is the most important part ofthat line but martin is the best player

The line just needs to add depth and it will be fine. Getting Fleming is a big deal moreso i think for tyrons back issues than to start at RT to replace collins. And Collins was fine at RT but the oline was a godamn trainwreck w tyron out. That is on dallas not being prepared to play without him. They put in green who had been moved from T to G then back to T. Position flex doesnt always work out

I think Zack martin is a luxury that dallas needs right now. Why cant you guys just let fred/martin/collins develop some continuity together and fuckin destroy defenses ???

I agree he is a luxury but we do not need him if he is just going to be a RG. Of course Martin can swing to OT (played it in college). But Collins has struggled at RT playing alongside the luxury item. Collins is a natural mauler OG that can swing to T. That helps the OL depth. But I truly feel the Martin could swing and stay at RT at All Pro level. If he does that...PAY THE MAN.

Remember that Larry Allen hit the Cowboys OL after playing LT in college as the Cowboys starting RG. We all know his pro bowl and all pro career as LT, LG, and RG.

Next year we can draft Larry Allen Jr. and put him at RG. Smith, Collins, Fredericks, Allen Jr., Martin. That's if we can get 2 years out of Tyron Smith's back.
 

Ragnar

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I stated this in another post. It does not make sense to pay Zach Martin a big contract to be a Right OG. He would have to move to T. Because most OT can easily convert to OG, OG's are easy to find. When the Cowboys signed Collins, I knew he could in immediately and play OG in the NFL because he had been a LT in the SEC. The move to RT was not the best for Collins long term. Martin is a better technician and he could move to RT and get paid like a T. The Cowboys can not blow up a messed up salary cap at the OG position. It is a position to easy to fill by draft or FA (see Leary, Cooper, Davis, etc.).

What would really be wild is the Cowboys play Fleming at RT, move Collins to OG (he has 2/3 more contract years) and move Martin via trade. You can not pay your entire OL top 10 pay. But our dumbo GM is incapable of coming up with that type of trade that would be worth losing Martin.

Chemistry is important to an OL. I would rather see Collins move to RG and be the swing to T if any OT gets hurt. Martin move to RT, and Fleming replace Cooper at LG. That way you can lock in Martin long term keeping 4 of your 5 starting OL from last year.

Finally, the lost of Johnathan Cooper was big because Cooper was an OG that can play C and was a highly rated C out of college. If we lose Fredricks at C we will be a messed up as losing Tyron at LT. The Cowboys have to address this via the draft, I like Daniels out of Iowa or FA.

Not saving any cap space by trading Martin. The dead cap would be the same as his pay for 2018.
 

dbair1967

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If Nelson is pure OG, then it is a mistake to draft a pure OG in the top 10. I do not know any other way to state the obvious. However, Nelson plays LG and has the athletic ability so he maybe Mike Munchak/Alan Faneca type special.

the last pure OG selected in the top 10 was Chris Naeole in 1997. The only one with real success was Mike Munchak in the 80's.

So you can say what you want, NFL history, NFL draft history, and common football sense says you do not pay premium draft picks or money for a RG.

The most important thing to do when drafting early is draft good players. Drafting busts or average guys is what comes back to haunt a team, not drafting a certain position.
 
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Not saving any cap space by trading Martin. The dead cap would be the same as his pay for 2018.

That's what big D stands for...Dead Money Cap. It was a way out there thinking (trade). The Cowboys are going to move Collins to LG, play Fleming at RT, and sign Martin long term. If not they would be stupid not to trade him versus letting him walk as a free agent. I am sure a lot of teams would offer no.1 picks and more for Martin.
 

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That's what big D stands for...Dead Money Cap. It was a way out there thinking (trade). The Cowboys are going to move Collins to LG, play Fleming at RT, and sign Martin long term. If not they would be stupid not to trade him versus letting him walk as a free agent. I am sure a lot of teams would offer no.1 picks and more for Martin.

Agreed. Not a lot of cap space to sign him long term. After this season they need to dump Crawford and sign Martin. They will mostly cancel eachother out. It's a no brainer.
 
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Agreed. Not a lot of cap space to sign him long term. After this season they need to dump Crawford and sign Martin. They will mostly cancel eachother out. It's a no brainer.

I agree with you and myself. But it still does not make sense to make a OG the top paid OL when you can fill the void so easy at OG. You can not do it at LT, and C. C and LT are hard to find. That is why the Saints traded TE Graham for a C. But Leary, and Cooper showed you that you can go get a OG.

Look at the Dallas Cowboys defense. That is were the draft and the money should go. How many times does Aaron Rodgers go down the field and beat the Cowboys. How many times does an average QB with a good all purpose RB light up your defense before you stop drafting one legged LBs, dope head DL, and uncertain DBs (is he a CB or a S) and invest money and quality draft picks on the Cowboys Defense?

I know the importance of long term continuity on the OL. From Rayfield Wright and Dave Manders to Tyron Smith and Travis Frederick. But the money must be different for the position. You pay your LT, and your C. Every other OL position (RG, LG, and RT) is re-loadable in the draft and free agency at a lower cost so you can have more money for other important positions like RDE, RDT, OLB, and FS.

I know we do not have a football General Manager that knows this fundamental football analysis but please stop the insanity of putting money at the wrong positions.

If you are going to run a 4-3 Defense you need a great RDT (see Lilly, White, Maryland/Lett), RDE (see Andrie, Martin, Haley), OLB (see Howley, Henderson, Norton/Smith), CB (see Mel Renfro, Everson Walls, and Kevin Smith), and a S (see Green/Renfro, Waters/Harris, Downs/Thurman, Woodson/Williams). That is 5 positions of 11 that you have to get and keep talent on defense.

On offense to run any offense you need a C (see Manders, Fitzgerald, Rafferty, Stepnoski, Gurode, Frederick), LT (Wright, Donovan, Tuieni, Adams, Smith), QB (Meredith, Staubach, White, Aikman), RB (Perkins, Dorsett, Smith), and WR (Hayes, Pearson, Hill, Irvin, TO, Bryant). That is 5 positions of 11 that you have to get and keep talent on offense.

Do this and the Cowboys may get back to consistently being in the playoffs, and then having the chance in championship games to go and win Super Bowls. They are not going anywhere paying RG big long term contracts. Any General Manager with commonsense should be able to keep 10 of 22 positions with talent.

But as my Aunt use to say "if sense was common, everyone would have it."
 

dbair1967

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Just draft good players, try not to draft for "need"

That's normally where teams get into trouble, and it's something that in the post Jimmy days we've been hosed on numerous times.
 
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