2018 NFL Draft Thread

Scot · Mar 7, 2018

The one player (other than o-lineman) that we can all agree the team actually hit on was Zeke

And even h came with some bullshit. We knew about his DA case when we took him, we knew he could be suspended. Then two years later when we were “supposed to make a run for the super bowl” he finally gets suspended for 6 games

We thought we got the jackpot with Dak. But now that seems to not be the case

icup · Mar 7, 2018

dbair1967 · Mar 7, 2018

Dodger12 said:
Absolutely not. Johnson doesn't trade 3 picks for RWII or not have one contributor from 2009 with a dozen or so picks. You keep telling yourself we have talent and we'll keep failing and you'll keep scratching your head as to why.

Jimmy once traded 5 picks once for Stan Smagala, he also wasted what ended up being the #1 overall pick in 1990 on Steve Walsh (although he got bailed out a little on that by getting a 1st and another pick back from the Aints).

Ultimately though if you are really going to sit there and try and tell me Jimmy Johnson couldn't coach up ANY group of players better than Jason Garrett, then you are a true CZ level ****** that doesn't need to be argued with anymore.

Jimmy would have had the Cowboys in multiple championship games and probably even a super bowl or two since 2007 if he were the HC here coaching these exact same players, I have ZERO doubt about it.

And while I noted Jimmy did flop a few times on draft picks (we could add in gems like passing on Bubba McDowell for Rhondy Weston, attempting to trade up for James Francis and Lamar Lathon the yr we lucked into Emmitt and drafted some scrub named Mike Middleton in the 3rd rd) he was an outstanding personnel guy. He likely wouldn't have traded for Roy Williams (as you noted) and instead would have landed a few good players.

Nobody hits on all of their draft picks though, regardless of how good they are. If that's your contention then like I said, you are a CZ level ****** and should go sit in the corner with the dunce hat on.

Dodger12 · Mar 7, 2018

dbair1967 said:
Jimmy once traded 5 picks once for Stan Smagala, he also wasted what ended up being the #1 overall pick in 1990 on Steve Walsh (although he got bailed out a little on that by getting a 1st and another pick back from the Aints).

Ultimately though if you are really going to sit there and try and tell me Jimmy Johnson couldn't coach up ANY group of players better than Jason Garrett, then you are a true CZ level ****** that doesn't need to be argued with anymore.

Jimmy would have had the Cowboys in multiple championship games and probably even a super bowl or two since 2007 if he were the HC here coaching these exact same players, I have ZERO doubt about it.

And while I noted Jimmy did flop a few times on draft picks (we could add in gems like passing on Bubba McDowell for Rhondy Weston, attempting to trade up for James Francis and Lamar Lathon the yr we lucked into Emmitt and drafted some scrub named Mike Middleton in the 3rd rd) he was an outstanding personnel guy. He likely wouldn't have traded for Roy Williams (as you noted) and instead would have landed a few good players.

Nobody hits on all of their draft picks though, regardless of how good they are. If that's your contention then like I said, you are a CZ level ****** and should go sit in the corner with the dunce hat on.

I'll tell you what's retarded.....comparing someone who traded a first, 3rd and a 6th for RWII to someone who traded a 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th and 11th round pick for Smagala. In essence, he traded a 6th and 4 UFA's for a player taken in the 5th round that Jimmy wanted.

And this isn't about Jimmy Johnson's ability to coach players. You like to move the goal posts a lot in these discussions. But I get it...it makes you feel better to think that Jimmy could have won a championship with Gregory, the Gimp, Escobar, Claiborne and others. I guess I could make the same argument and say the Red Dolt could have won multiple SB's with Jimmy's players. But I'm not as silly as you.

The bottom line is all this talent is still not an impact player on any NFL team. Escobar is scrubbing the toilets in Cleavland after being cut twice in one year (KC and Baltimore) and is hoping to land a roster spot in the cesspool of the NFL. Our late round picks, rather than be some solid depth, are washing dishes at Perkins.

Sometimes you go full bore CZ super-homer level stupid.

dbair1967 · Mar 7, 2018

Dodger12 said:
And how do you reconcile that? He had talent in 2016 but not in 17? Chaz Green had question marks coming out of college. His failure on this team should not come as a surprise. The guy lacks heart and passion for the game. Those guys don't work hard enough to improve their craft. I wouldn't even give a shit about guys like Green, the Gimp, Escobar, Gregory, Wilcox, Claiborne or Bruce Carter. Except they cost us premium picks. These guys should be the foundation of this team. But instead, we're just hoping that the Gimp can play without a brace and change direction. Fuck that.

His question marks out of college were around injury, not lack of desire to play or quality level of play. he was graded out extremely high by the Florida coaches and played extensively at RT and LT there (at that time, their offensive scheme dictated flip flopping their tackles based on the formation/play call)

dbair1967 · Mar 7, 2018

Dodger12 said:
Exactly Scott. I think they became enamored with Jones' athleticism. And for all that athleticism, he's had 2 picks. That's it.

While true, that seems to be something that infects all our DB's over the past several years. They don't make plays.

Awuzie, Lewis and Woods (and even Brown) have shown some ability to jump on balls in the air, but it's definitely not a trait that many of our DB's have had over the years. Claiborne made a ton of plays at LSU, but very few once he came here.

dbair1967 · Mar 7, 2018

Dodger12 said:
I'll tell you what's retarded.....comparing someone who traded a first, 3rd and a 6th for RWII to someone who traded a 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th and 11th round pick for Smagala. In essence, he traded a 6th and 4 UFA's for a player taken in the 5th round that Jimmy wanted.

And this isn't about Jimmy Johnson's ability to coach players. You like to move the goal posts a lot in these discussions. But I get it...it makes you feel better to think that Jimmy could have won a championship with Gregory, the Gimp, Escobar, Claiborne and others. I guess I could make the same argument and say the Red Dolt could have won multiple SB's with Jimmy's players. But I'm not as silly as you.

The bottom line is all this talent is still not an impact player on any NFL team. Escobar is scrubbing the toilets in Cleavland after being cut twice in one year (KC and Baltimore) and is hoping to land a roster spot in the cesspool of the NFL. Our late round picks, rather than be some solid depth, are washing dishes at Perkins.

Sometimes you go full bore CZ super-homer level stupid.

Dude, you are 100% off the reservation with this b/s

Our team the past ten years has had ample talent, it's reflected in numerous players own production on the field and some of the success they had in the w/l column (not consistent success mind you, but they did have 3 seasons where they won at least 12 games there). Not all the players on this roster have been fucking Escobar, Gregory or "Gimp". There's been plenty of quality players here, and neither Wade nor Garrett got anywhere near the max out of them.

If you are saying the team lacks talent, then you have to be admitting Garrett must be some sort of really great coach or something. That makes you a ******. Otherwise you have to admit the team has some ample talent to win what little they have. If Garrett coached the damn Browns or something he'd be 1-15 or 2-14 every fucking year.

Shut the fuck up.

dbair1967 · Mar 7, 2018

Dodger12 said:
I
The bottom line is all this talent is still not an impact player on any NFL team. Escobar is scrubbing the toilets in Cleavland after being cut twice in one year (KC and Baltimore) and is hoping to land a roster spot in the cesspool of the NFL. Our late round picks, rather than be some solid depth, are washing dishes at Perkins.

.

And I don't even know what it is you are trying to say here. Make sense man.

dbair1967 · Mar 7, 2018

Dodger12 said:
I'll tell you what's retarded.....comparing someone who traded a first, 3rd and a 6th for RWII to someone who traded a 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th and 11th round pick for Smagala. In essence, he traded a 6th and 4 UFA's for a player taken in the 5th round that Jimmy wanted.

.

He still traded 5 players for an out and out scrub. Those guys weren't "UFA's" then, they WERE draft picks.

He made his share of mistakes, nobody hits on them all. But the difference with him was he knew how to supplement the team with some quality trades (guys like Buerlien, Gesek, Thomas Everett, Haley, Casillas) and was absolutely the best coach in the league when he was here. He motivated players better than just about anyone and put together outstanding game plans and adjustments during games.

The highest drafted OL he had while he was here was Erik Williams (2001, 3rd rd) and yet they assembled an OL made up of later rd/free agent type guys that nobody wanted and coached them up to be the leagues best unit. He coached up a guy he found in the 12th rd that ended up being a yr over yr starter at CB. He took a Plan B free agent guy that nobody wanted and made him into one of the best TE's in the league.

He had good players but he also coached up lesser players into quality players. If he coached these Dallas teams, you REALLY believe the results would be the same as what Garrett has gotten?

Dude Garrett wouldn't win shit with a bad roster, to argue anything differently just makes you look fucking dumb.

Dodger12 · Mar 7, 2018

dbair1967 said:
His question marks out of college were around injury, not lack of desire to play or quality level of play. he was graded out extremely high by the Florida coaches and played extensively at RT and LT there (at that time, their offensive scheme dictated flip flopping their tackles based on the formation/play call)

He played "extensively" or do you mean "exclusively" because he was always injured so you must mean the latter. I remember these question marks being raised during the draft. Green was also a MAJOR reach for a third round pick. That was pretty much the consensus at the time. We took another guy with an extensive injury history and drafted him with what I consider a premium pick (top 3 rounds) when most draft sites had him as a late round pick.

The philosophy was there and I understand they were looking down the road to replace Free. But taking a guy who's often injured, soft and weak was a major reach for the 3rd round.

dbair1967 · Mar 7, 2018

Dodger12 said:
He played "extensively" or do you mean "exclusively" because he was always injured so you must mean the latter. I remember these question marks being raised during the draft. Green was also a MAJOR reach for a third round pick. That was pretty much the consensus at the time. We took another guy with an extensive injury history and drafted him with what I consider a premium pick (top 3 rounds) when most draft sites had him as a late round pick.

The philosophy was there and I understand they were looking down the road to replace Free. But taking a guy who's often injured, soft and weak was a major reach for the 3rd round.

I don't think he should have went 3rd rd either based on his injury history, but the dude was a good player when he was on the field there. Their coaches really liked how he played when he was out there.

Our people gambled on an injured guy in college somehow getting to the pros and not being injured much, and of course that didn't work out that way.

I do think he quit in the Falcons game though, probably due to sour grapes over losing his starting job in preseason. He should have been cut the day after the Falcons game, but because Garrett is a pussy he is still here.

Dodger12 · Mar 7, 2018

dbair1967 said:
While true, that seems to be something that infects all our DB's over the past several years. They don't make plays.

Awuzie, Lewis and Woods (and even Brown) have shown some ability to jump on balls in the air, but it's definitely not a trait that many of our DB's have had over the years. Claiborne made a ton of plays at LSU, but very few once he came here.

I'll agree on the new DB's. I like Lewis and Awuzie and these guys aren't afraid to mix it up. I hear you about Claiborne....hey, where's Mike Jenkins? Another exceptional first round talent that couldn't stick with another team.

Dodger12 · Mar 7, 2018

dbair1967 said:
He still traded 5 players for an out and out scrub. Those guys weren't "UFA's" then, they WERE draft picks.

He made his share of mistakes, nobody hits on them all. But the difference with him was he knew how to supplement the team with some quality trades (guys like Buerlien, Gesek, Thomas Everett, Haley, Casillas) and was absolutely the best coach in the league when he was here. He motivated players better than just about anyone and put together outstanding game plans and adjustments during games.

The highest drafted OL he had while he was here was Erik Williams (2001, 3rd rd) and yet they assembled an OL made up of later rd/free agent type guys that nobody wanted and coached them up to be the leagues best unit. He coached up a guy he found in the 12th rd that ended up being a yr over yr starter at CB. He took a Plan B free agent guy that nobody wanted and made him into one of the best TE's in the league.

He had good players but he also coached up lesser players into quality players. If he coached these Dallas teams, you REALLY believe the results would be the same as what Garrett has gotten?

Dude Garrett wouldn't win shit with a bad roster, to argue anything differently just makes you look fucking dumb.

You don't need to give me a history lesson and tell me how great Johnson was. I already know that but it was a great post anyway so props.

But you're also proving my point. Jimmy identified talent throughout the draft and how that talent could fit into his scheme and vision. The only way we can build anything here is if we use multiple first round picks (ie: OL). You're argument is that we have talented players but Garrett can't coach them. I know Garrett can't coach. I also know that we don't have a talent rich team by any stretch.

On the flip side, I also wouldn't attribute Fred, Martin, and T Smith's success to Garrett's coaching. They ended up being good picks and I'm not so blinded by my hate of Jerry that I can't admit that. But you seem to claim that Garrett sucks as a coach and we can't develop these players but yet we do have some talent, just not as much as you think. It's really a contradiction in your argument.

dbair1967 · Mar 7, 2018

Dodger12 said:
I'll agree on the new DB's. I like Lewis and Awuzie and these guys aren't afraid to mix it up. I hear you about Claiborne....hey, where's Mike Jenkins? Another exceptional first round talent that couldn't stick with another team.

Jenkins was another guy that made a lot of plays in college, came here and had one good yr basically.

Another attitude problem player that would have only responded well to "hard" coaching, and he certainly wasn't going to get that from Wade/Garrett.

dbair1967 · Mar 7, 2018

Dodger12 said:
You don't need to give me a history lesson and tell me how great Johnson was. I already know that but it was a great post anyway so props.

But you're also proving my point. Jimmy identified talent throughout the draft and how that talent could fit into his scheme and vision. The only way we can build anything here is if we use multiple first round picks (ie: OL). You're argument is that we have talented players but Garrett can't coach them. I know Garrett can't coach. I also know that we don't have a talent rich team by any stretch.

On the flip side, I also wouldn't attribute Fred, Martin, and T Smith's success to Garrett's coaching. They ended up being good picks and I'm not so blinded by my hate of Jerry that I can't admit that. But you seem to claim that Garrett sucks as a coach and we can't develop these players but yet we do have some talent, just not as much as you think. It's really a contradiction in your argument.

I like giving history lessons.

I'm giving up after this post.

I still say Jimmy would win a bunch more with the current team, or any of the previous teams since 2007 than what Wade or Garrett has done. There have been seasons where we won 13 games (twice) 12 games and 11 games, so yes I do believe there is talent there. If there were not talent there, Wade and Garrett would not have won. Neither has a shred of ability to "coach up" average to mediocre talent. Those 4 seasons were examples of talent laden teams carrying bad coaches.

I just don't see how anyone could dispute this, nor can I understand how you DONT understand this. I know you are smarter than this.

Dodger12 · Mar 7, 2018

dbair1967 said:
Jenkins was another guy that made a lot of plays in college, came here and had one good yr basically.

Another attitude problem player that would have only responded well to "hard" coaching, and he certainly wasn't going to get that from Wade/Garrett.

He didn't succeed anywhere else he went, at least long enough for someone to keep him for any extended period. That's more telling of his talent (and attitude is included in that evaluation) than the coaching.

dbair1967 · Mar 7, 2018

Dodger12 said:
He didn't succeed anywhere else he went, at least long enough for someone to keep him for any extended period. That's more telling of his talent (and attitude is included in that evaluation) than the coaching.

Remind me where he went and who coached him after he left here.

Dodger12 · Mar 7, 2018

dbair1967 said:
I like giving history lessons.

I'm giving up after this post.

I still say Jimmy would win a bunch more with the current team, or any of the previous teams since 2007 than what Wade or Garrett has done. There have been seasons where we won 13 games (twice) 12 games and 11 games, so yes I do believe there is talent there. If there were not talent there, Wade and Garrett would not have won. Neither has a shred of ability to "coach up" average to mediocre talent. Those 4 seasons were examples of talent laden teams carrying bad coaches.

I just don't see how anyone could dispute this, nor can I understand how you DONT understand this. I know you are smarter than this.

Johnson could absolutely win more here; we could talk forever of the games Garrett had a hand in losing because of his poor coaching. But I'm not sure it would lead to a SB with this core group of players.

We've won double digits a couple of times and I don't attribute that to coaching. It was Good QB play (even Dak's rookie year) and a bit of a soft schedule two years ago. But the D completely folding when Lee gets hurt is a talent issue. Coaching can only take some of our scrubs so far. When the OL looks like a completely different unit when T Smith gets hurt, it's a talent issue when his replacement is historically bad. We lack any depth. That's what happens when you miss way more than you hit after the first round.

Dodger12 · Mar 7, 2018

dbair1967 said:
Remind me where he went and who coached him after he left here.

So if he needed a "tough" coach to succeed, why was he even drafted to play for the Cupcake? The bottom line is our former 1st round pick is out of the NFL, just like Felix Jones.

dbair1967 · Mar 7, 2018

Dodger12 said:
The bottom line is our former 1st round pick is out of the NFL, just like Felix Jones.

You might want to go refresh your memory on the 2008 1st rd

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